Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hello. Welcome to the Money Adjustment. I'm your host, Dr. Mark Kramer, D.C. i am a chiropractor who loves investing and trading. Are you interested in what's moving markets and your money? Great. Me too. Let's get started.
So today we have a very, very special guest. Yes, I said very twice. I have known today's guest for over two decades. He was a clinical advisor when I was a chiropract student and he is also the first person to teach me about options through his company, Money Speak. And he's one of the few people I know who is like me, a chiropractor who loves investing in trading. Our guest today is Dr. Matthew Mategin. Dr. Mateeghan is first and foremost the CEO and founder of Blue World Asset Managers, which is a business, financial and economic consulting company. He is also an interviewee on economic and investment topics topics in USA Today and the developer of the Blue World Economic Index. Further, he's a regular guest analyst on CBS Noon Business Hour and a regular guest on the Gains with Andy Geisher podcast. Lastly, he is a former CEO of an automobile and health insurance company which prompted me to invite him on today. A few weeks ago I did a podcast with Jared Aversano who presented his case for the infinite banking concept using whole life insurance. After that interview, I contacted my friend Dr. Maten regarding his thoughts on the subject of which he has a few and which he will share with us today. Given the infinite banking concept can be controversial, I sought Dr. Mate's counsel to offer a balanced perspective on the subject. Since Dr. Mate is a guest lecturer for various business, law and medical programs, I asked him what his favorite topic to discuss to which he replied essential entrepreneurial skill sets. So what I'm going to do with Dr. Mateeghan today is we are going to discuss just touch on the infinite banking concept and then we are also going to delve into the essential entrepreneurial skill sets and I look forward to getting his insights into these essentials since this is a podcast about entrepreneurship and investing. So that was a nice introduction for what I like to consider a friend of mine. We've known each other, as I mentioned, for over 20 years. And let me introduce to everyone Dr. Matthew Mategin.
[00:02:50] Speaker B: Matt, Appreciate it Mark. Thanks for having me on.
[00:02:53] Speaker A: Yeah, appreciate you being here. So I remember when I reached out to you, I reached out to you via LinkedIn and I told you I did this podcast with someone with regards to infinite banking and I asked you if you had an opinion on the subject and you were amused that I even asked the question wrot reminding me that you were a CEO for an insurance company.
So one of the things that you commented that I thought was interesting to start with is that you said some of its benefits were overrated and that some of its drawbacks were understated.
So why don't we start off there as a jumping point?
[00:03:34] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. And specifically, specifically, I was saying that the benefits not overrated, but also overstated. State it.
You got to remember most of the time, most of the time when you're talking about these things, you're speaking with people who make a living selling these products.
[00:03:56] Speaker A: Right.
[00:03:57] Speaker B: And so you always have to, you know, not that that's a bad thing, certainly, but you always have to keep in mind that, okay, you make a living selling this widget and you're telling me it's a very good idea to buy this widget. So whenever we're talking about anything that involves a financial transaction, a healthy dose of cynicism is usually appropriate.
[00:04:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:23] Speaker B: So I am very familiar with these products and how they work. There are several different variations on them. Some leverage a whole life model, some leverage a universal life model. Some are very, very specific to retirement funding and others are more broad in general, like infinite banking concept. So everything you've heard about, what's good about them, and, and everything the gentleman that you had on speaking about them, those are all true. I, they are very, very true.
[00:04:56] Speaker A: But I'm going to stop you for one man. I, I'm going to stop you for one second just so I can bring everybody up to speed. What are some of the benefits of a whole life insurance as, as an infinite banking concept in terms of building up cash value, being able to borrow against that cash value? What are the benefits that you see?
[00:05:16] Speaker B: Pretty much just exactly as you stated. The benefit is essentially that you can borrow money from yourself instead of borrowing it from a traditional lending institution. You can borrow money that you have already set aside for the purpose of borrowing. And there are of course, tremendous benefits to that borrowing from yourself as opposed to a lending agency. The tax benefits of paying the interest still apply. But there are other assumptions people make about these that aren't necessarily true. Like just because you're borrowing money from yourself doesn't mean you don't have to pay it back. That's probably, that's probably the number one assumption that I run into is people think that if they're borrowing their own money from themselves, that they can offer themselves a certain amount of flexibility with regard to a repayment schedule and that if you skip payments or forgive the loan to yourself, that, that, that that's okay because it's your own money. I'm afraid the IRS doesn't see it that way.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I would imagine so. Now, I've been thinking about this. Why not just. If I'm going to put Aside, let's say $500 a month to do this, and part of that $500 goes to the actual buying of the policy, which I don't see any of. Until the, until I don't actually, I should never really see any of it because technically I don't get it until I pass away. So it would be like a legacy product in terms of my children would be seeing something like that or my wife.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: I was going to say you're not going to see any.
[00:07:06] Speaker A: I was going to say I'm never going to see any of it. Which I understand that conceptually, but why not take that $500 a month? Because I think this is the opposing argument. Why not take that $500 a month and just set it aside for yourself? And why, why pay to borrow from yourself?
[00:07:22] Speaker B: Well, as you know, my wife is an attorney whose concentrations were in small business services and estate planning. So she deal products a lot and her general philosophy was by the term invest the rest. Right, the, the products, the first problem with them, or I say problem, the first thing that really needs to be considered is the sheer cost. If you are a young professional, a young family, you're just starting out and you're not making all that much money and you go out, you buy a home and you buy a car, adding this life insurance product to the list of things you have to pay every month. It's like having one and three quarters mortgages. All right? So they are very, very cash intensive.
They're all set up a little bit differently. There are lots of options with regard to how much money you quote, unquote, put down or fun to begin with. But then you have to fund this to the tune of big, big dollars month after month for decades before you reach the point where you can actually use it as your own bank. So again, the number one thing I run into is, hey, I can forgive loans to myself. Well, no you can't. Not without it becoming compounded on your original principle. Plus, if you were forgiven alone, the irs, if they want, can consider it income. So, you know, that's the benefit of.
[00:09:08] Speaker A: It, is that you're not taxed. That's the tax advantage, is that when you take that money out and it's Borrowed money that you're maybe living off of. You're not taxed on that money because it's borrowed.
[00:09:18] Speaker B: That's one of the taxes, the money that goes in. And this might be getting a little bit into the weeds. And this is always 100% dependent. You don't just go and buy one of these. You have the agent who's trying to sell it to you sitting at a table with your estate planning attorney, not your personal injury attorney, your estate planning attorney who does nothing but estate planning all day, every day, your accountant and your investment advisor. If you are working with a Separate advisor, all three of those professionals need to be 100% aware and on board before you embark on this, because it is a major financial commitment. And, you know, they don't call it whole life for no reason.
[00:10:13] Speaker A: I mean, when you're in, you're in, you're in. It's like.
[00:10:16] Speaker B: And there's a penalty for pulling out.
[00:10:18] Speaker A: Now that's. Yes. That's the part I think about too, is like, if you find yourself in a difficult situation where let's say you do miss a payment or something happens. Like, I sometimes think, suppose you go like 20 years and you've been putting in consistently, and maybe you've even been building that cash value, but something happens and for some reason you're not able to make a payment or whatever it is. Can that completely, like null and void the policy or how do they. How does that typically get handled?
[00:10:48] Speaker B: Typically, it won't happen if you miss a payment, but those difficult times tend to not last for just one month.
[00:10:59] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:11:01] Speaker B: So if it becomes a case where you've gone some consecutive months, and again, you know, everybody has a different threshold, but if you go consecutive months, eventually that's going to be a very real problem. And if you become intermittent, you know, you can't say, okay, I paid this month, I missed last month, but I'm getting this month. So, yeah, everything's going to be okay. Now, if that happens three, four, five times in a year, you're going to get a phone call. And again, the last thing you want when, when what you're doing is trying to build and preserve wealth, the last thing you want is to have one of those vehicles force you to make a choice between am I going to pay my whole life insurance policy this month or my mortgage this month.
[00:11:54] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:11:54] Speaker B: And that does happen. It does happen. And again, these are just some of the downsides to consider, some of the, the trap doors, if you will. I have seen these Work and work very, very well, but for very specific purposes.
[00:12:12] Speaker A: Let's get, for example.
[00:12:14] Speaker B: Okay, yeah, just had, just had some clients recently who have fairly young children. These people, they, you know, built a company, did the big exit, sitting on a ton of cash, more cash than they, you know, reasonably wanted to have for appropriate planning purposes.
So what they did is they started a couple of these accounts for their children. They have an insurable interest in their children. At the appropriate time, the control of the vehicles can be passed over, they can be held in trust by the parents, funded by the parents.
And then, you know, this gets started at a time when, you know, children have no concept or idea of what's happening. And then suddenly, at 18 years old, 21 years old, 25 years old, whenever the parents decide, suddenly they have this fabulous nest egg built up. And there is a significant estate planning and tax planning advantage for the parents as well as for the children. So there was a case where this product was absolutely tailor made for a situation like theirs. But again, if you're a young family just starting out and, you know, you're paying rent or paying a small mortgage, especially with today's rates, plus a car, plus feeding children, if you have children, that's not who these are for four. And yet I have a lot of these kinds of people coming in and asking me, hey, this guy told you this? Grown up. My own banking, I can borrow money from me to buy my house. Well, did you inherit a ton of cash?
[00:14:04] Speaker A: Right.
[00:14:05] Speaker B: Are you a neurosurgeon at 18 years old? Those are the kinds of situations where. Yeah, it would be applicable now.
[00:14:13] Speaker A: Now, hearing you say this, I understand why I had the conversation with Jared and I understand why he reached out to me because I was in a position he hurt. He overheard me saying that I had inherited a sum of money. And so he probably saw, oh, this is. You're the type of person he identified. Identified me as the type of person that would be interested in this kind of product is my guess.
[00:14:39] Speaker B: Yeah, well, that, and that makes perfect sense. And I, you know, that of course, gives me, gives me a degree of confidence and that again, I've had people for whom this is completely inappropriate come in and having been convinced that it would be a really good idea and I have to have this very conversation about the. Yeah, but right, right, right. So in your case, if you're sitting on a lot of cash. Yeah, this is a big ant and it is. You need a specific tax advantaged vehicle.
[00:15:13] Speaker A: Right.
[00:15:14] Speaker B: Then this could be, this could be very appropriate. Now when we talk about the tax advantage, and this is an important, very important distinction, we hear a lot of langu, it being quote, unquote, tax free. Nothing is tax free. Nothing.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: Okay, okay.
[00:15:30] Speaker B: It's not tax free. The appropriate terminology is tax deferred.
So usually with these policies, your income comes to you or your inheritance comes to you. However it is you get the, the lump sum that you're going to put into this to begin with comes to you, you pay tax on it, then you start funding. So now at the other end, when you start taking money out and or borrowing it, then yes, it's tax free at some point. Just, just like the difference between a Roth IRA and a regular IRA when it gets taxed matters, but it will get taxed at some point.
Now, exceptions exist about is it being used for education specifically and keep all your receipts or when get taxed, at.
[00:16:23] Speaker A: Some point, would it be because, like you said, I'm not going to see, actually see any of this money. It would be my, my children or my wife that would see this money. Would they be ta. Does it become taxable once it's transferred to the beneficiary? Or how does that work?
[00:16:39] Speaker B: Again, kind of deep in the weeds. There are different structures for the method. For example, is this held in a limited partnership? Is it held in trust? Is it held by an individual? There are different vehicles by which it can be transferred. But the other part that sometimes gets missed is, let's say the principal has been funding this, takes out a substantial loan and passes away before the loan is satisfied. Well, upon death, the amount, the unpaid balance of that loan is adjusted off of the death benefit.
So if there is a big debt associated with it, the people for whom you intended to receive a death benefit on your passing, they could take a huge bite.
[00:17:37] Speaker A: It could take a bite, but it's not necessarily a tax bite.
[00:17:40] Speaker B: It can be also a tax bite.
[00:17:42] Speaker A: Okay, yeah.
[00:17:43] Speaker B: They, you know, obviously reducing the inherited amount will reduce the tax burden on that amount, probably. But again, this is why I'm saying that the fine print on these is extensive. And you probably saw the application, right? The small print is extensive. That's why I'm saying not just your lawyer, not just your accountant, not just your investment advisor, I want all three of those professionals sitting around the table as I consider whether or not I'm going to do this and under what estate planning structure.
[00:18:24] Speaker A: Okay, Okay. I appreciate what you're saying. And like you said, I think there's a lot of weeds here. And I think for me personally, I don't, I'm not sitting on cash because I'm an investor. So my money is in the market in some form or fashion even if it's just in a money market account if I'm in a risk off position.
So I'm not necessarily. My income didn't increase. I didn't have like a. I don't have a surplus in that way that I feel like for me personally, for me again, for me personally, I don't know who's listening to this or for whom this would be relevant.
I had Jared on because he and I are in a similar program and like I said, he reached out to me and I think he reached out to me. I think I understand why he reached out to me. And during this interview he, he presented a sales case and he really was basically just for him. He just knew if he could get on the call he could try to sell me and I, and I get that part of it. But I also felt like it was educational and I had heard of the infinite banking concept and I am aware of it as a tool that wealthy people do use. So I did feel like it was going to be of some value to discuss.
[00:19:34] Speaker B: Full credit to him. I think it was really smart because by coming on with you he made the pitch to you. But he probably brought awareness of this to a lot of people out there for whom it might be appropriate.
[00:19:48] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
[00:19:49] Speaker B: That would have otherwise never heard of it. So I think it was very smart of both of you him to say can I come on? And you say yeah, come on.
[00:19:58] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. I love it because I want you.
[00:20:02] Speaker B: And I, you and I would have never had this conversation were it not for his being astute enough to pick up on the fact that you might be someone to approach and that that's good sales.
[00:20:13] Speaker A: Absolutely. I agree with that 100% and I like that because it leaves it on a positive note. I wasn't trying to put position it as a good or bad. I think you stated it very well. Some of it is some of the pros are understated or overstated and some of the cons are understated. So it's just more to flush out because you and I aren't having a sales call. So it's a little bit easier to have a conversation about where appropriate and where it's not appropriate versus when someone's intention is to sell you their widget. And it's like, yes, I understand, like I'm a good lead for your widget, whether it makes sense. For me or not. Like, I understand why I'm being presented this case and to my larger audience because I'm trying to attract like, founders, entrepreneurs, business people. But I'm. I myself am more interested in investing in trading. That is my preferred vehicle. And I know. And in the future sometime, because as I mentioned early on in this episode, you're the first person that I learned options from to really understand it. I'd heard of options, but your course gave a real. And you did a real nice job. I remember this presentation from like 20 years ago and it, and it opened my mind to options. And I didn't. And at that time, I didn't because options are somewhat, they're complicated, but, but they're not necessarily complicated. You just, there's a learning curve on them. And at that time, it was like a flood of information. And now, and, and, and I was a student then, so I didn't really have the money to play around with it like I do now. So we.
[00:21:41] Speaker B: You recall. But I always start that the name of the program was Money Speak, presents money as a second language. And that's how I always start that seminar is I am about to stretch your lips across an information fire hydrant and open the.
There's a lot coming at you. But, you know, stocks, bonds, options, futures, real estate, entrepreneurialism, term insurance, life insurance, auto insurance, insurance. There are a lot of tools in the toolbox available to us to help build wealth, but you have to view each of them individually as just that. It's a tool. Like any tool, if you, if you bring the right tool to the right circumstance, you will get a good outcome. Outcome. We can all agree a hammer is a very, very useful, versatile tool. But if the task at hand is to drive in a screw, wrong tool, wrong scenario, bad outcome.
[00:22:53] Speaker A: Right.
[00:22:56] Speaker B: I'm. I'm not saying anything negative at all about this particular tool. It's just that this particular tool has a more narrow application for the desired outcome than say, like a stock portfolio, which has a very, very broad niche, whereas this is a very narrow vertical niche. But they are legitimate and useful tools. Just have to use them the right time and place.
[00:23:24] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. All of that makes sense to me and I think we'll use that to transition now because we keep touching on wealth building. And for me, a lot of this podcast has to do with wealth building because it's not just something to have to first earn and then accumulate some money, but then you have to like, protect and hold onto your money and that becomes its own Challenge. And it seems like an ever ongoing game, managing money, which is again, kind of why I have the show and have guests like you on to help articulate and hopefully give some insight to our listeners in terms of some strategies that they can use as they're on their journey for wealth building. Now let's get into the. I'm gonna have to. Because I want to say it. The essential. The essential entrepreneurial skill sets. So, so here, this is the transition into this. Because even with the life insurance thing, it's one thing to have a pile of money and then say, I have this pile of money and I'm going to do X with this pile of money, but it's a different thing to say once that money is gone, I still want to do stuff. And so there has to be still money coming in. You need not just cash, not just cash is king, but cash flow is king cash flow. And so for entrepreneurs or people who are interested in entrepreneurship or founders, they are trying to increase their cash flow, their revenue. So that is when you talk about the essentials of essential entrepreneurial skill sets.
[00:25:02] Speaker B: What do you mean a great transition? Because here's the tool I'm going to use to build this bridge. There is an insurance product that is, it's fair, fairly unknown. It really exists within the world of business and, and entrepreneurialism in particular. But are. Are you familiar with key man insurance policies?
[00:25:25] Speaker A: No. Okay. Okay.
[00:25:27] Speaker B: So it's a life insurance product. Okay. And talk about a tool that has a very, very narrow vertical niche.
You and I decide, you know what, you're really good at selling widgets, and I'm really good at building widgets. Why don't we combine forces? We're going to form a corporation. We're both going to contribute to it equally, and we're going to go into business. And as part of that, of course, we have to figure out, okay, if you want out, how do you get out? If you didn't want out, but you got hit by a bus, what happens? What happens to yours? So I don't want to be in a situation where I can no longer afford to carry the business on my own, or I can't afford to buy out your heirs, or they want to force that because they don't want anything to do with the business.
There is a product called keyman insurance where if something happened to you or something happens to me, the other one receives a death benefit that can be adjusted as time goes by based on value, such that you maximize the opportunity in cash. To your point, you Maximize the opportunity for the business to survive, even if one of the key players is for whatever reason, no longer available. Available.
So again, it's a life insurance product with a very narrow focus, but it's a really, really good tool if something like that happens. And of course that stuff happens all the time.
[00:27:16] Speaker A: Yeah, that's interesting. Hence the key man, the insurance insure. The key, the key men really. Because you're taking it. It would be like a dual insurance because the partners would each be insured.
[00:27:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:28] Speaker A: Yeah. That actually makes me kind of brings my mind back to the whole life insurance because. Because it's not just about you as an individual, but your spouse, your partner. Because once, because he was even saying he's like, I don't want to just sell you insurance, I want to sell your wife insurance, I want to sell your kids insurance. I want to make sure everybody's on this plan, which I get it as the vehicle. So, so but I'm thinking cash flow if you're. I'm in a program right now and I keep mentioning this on the podcast and one of the reasons it's. I'm in an interesting situation because I do utilization for work comp cases. That's how I earn my money. My wife is a nurse. That's how she earns her money. And then I invest. I took what. I can't say it was a large sum by any stretch of the imagination, especially in modern terms, but I took what, what money I inherited and I allocated it to the stock market basically. And I'm pretty. I was educated enough in the stock market to diversify my portfolio and educate myself in terms of different strategies I can use within the stock market and options being one of them and how to your. Your positions using options as an insurance vehicle. But I'm in this course where it's. It's a seven figure. Seven figure. And even though we're. We're chiropractors, so we have to, we have to sell because chiropractic isn't universally accepted. It is still, as far as I know, the statistic in the statistic that's always been touted in my recent memory, which is now not that recent because I haven't followed that stat, but it's about 10% of the population. So it's still like chiropract doctors as far as I know are still serving not a majority of. It's not like a. Something like a dentist where everybody they just like I have to have a dentist. I have to go see my dentist. I have to keep my teeth maintained, I have to do stuff here. But when we think about our spine, then it's like people, there's still like this mindset of take it or leave it. Oh, I don't have any back problems, so I don't really need to go see a chiropractor.
So this is a little bit of a digression. But. So, so I, I don't really consider myself like, I, I understand the concept of sales because I've had to educate people in terms of understanding what I did as a chiropractor. And there is a sales process involved in. Although it's somewhat, I don't know if it's uncouth to say that because we're healthcare providers, but it is that area where it's like you go to a medical doctor and people just accept, or they have, maybe not so much anymore, but they have just gone in and they just accept what the medical doctor says and then they just take the treatment as is. Versus there's a lot of, you know, when a chiropractor says it, then there's a lot of I gotta get the second opinion. I gotta this and that. Again, this may. I don't even know if I'm gonna keep this in because this might wind up just being a real off and tangent thing. But, but back to what I was saying is I'm in the sales program. It's seven figure sales. So the idea is that you're, I guess, seven figure sales, you're selling higher ticket products. So the fact that this one gentleman that reached out to me was in this program makes sense because life insurance is a higher ticket product over the full term of the policy. So I guess what I'm getting at and through this process, I've been introduced and have been meeting with and connecting with a lot of entrepreneurial entrepreneurs.
It's kind of coming. And when you're a chiropractor too, you're an entrepreneur. Because a lot of us, we have to start our own practice. We have to, you know, either buy a business or start our own business. And so we have to have a certain level of business acumen. Which chiropractic school gives you an education on that, and a pretty decent one, but it's still b. No, no, you're shaking your head.
[00:31:07] Speaker B: Good.
[00:31:07] Speaker A: Because I'm like, they say that, but I, I never really felt that way. I was like, I still don't feel like a business person. I feel more like a clinician. I appreciate the human body and want to do things to help people get healthier. And, and then when I found myself going out into practice, it's like, well, people don't just line up like they do in chiropractic school where all your fellow students just line up for you and they get on the table and you're all adjusting each other to get somebody on the table. Get ready to receive the adjustment. That's a whole nother animal. Animal. Again, let me keep trying to. Yes, please. Because the essential entrepreneurial skill sets like you have to have. What are they?
[00:31:42] Speaker B: Well, what are they?
[00:31:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, right. Just check them off. We'll just check them off.
[00:31:48] Speaker B: So let's start with, let's start with the concept of marketing and sales, because that's kind of what we've been dancing around, which is of course part of the, the required skill set, especially if you're starting your own little company on your own by yourself. Independent health care provider, know, building something out of your garage, like, you know, like Bill Gates or Hewlett Packard, you know, th. Those started as hobbies. But I, I teach, I've lectured in some of the nation's top business program and when I'm doing sales and marketing, those things and, you know, I pride myself on teaching this stuff and explaining it like, like nobody, like you won't hear anywhere else. And it was kind of unfortunate because right after your class left that national came and formally asked me to do a business class that met regularly. And you know, you, you guys got as much as I could share. Share with the time we had. But after that, we missed the good.
[00:33:01] Speaker A: Stuff because I was like, I, I know you had it in you, but. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:04] Speaker B: So in any case, most important thing when it comes to sales and marketing is that they are not the same thing. Those two are not synonyms. And it's very difficult to ever be successful if you think of them as the same thing. Say sales and marketing. Marketing is a psychological exercise. Marketing is about creating a perceived need in the mind of your target audience for your product or service. Marketing is the ability to get people interested how you know, by. However that is. Advertising is also not sales and it's not marketing.
So if I run into you and I say, hi, I'm Matt, I teach entrepreneurs how to get started in business and how to maximize their opportunity for success.
Now, if you're a prospective entrepreneur, suddenly I have your attention, right? I have created a perceived need in your mind for what I do.
So I take my business card and I hand it to you, or I, you know, airdrop.
[00:34:17] Speaker A: I Was gonna say. I was gonna say, man.
Yeah, right.
[00:34:24] Speaker B: So I give you my information. Marketing is creating a perceived need. Advertising is telling you where to go to get that need fulfilled.
So I marketed myself, I gave you my card. Now you think you might need me. Now you know where to find me. Sales. And again, my philosophy, the way I te sales is nothing more than the objective measure of the degree to which your marketing and advertising has been effective. If it's effective, run with it. If you're not getting the results you want, well, the first place you have to go to retool. And this is, this is the number one thing to know in business, the number one rule for success is be prepared to identify when you were wrong.
Get your ego out of the way and retool something. It's like I'm fond of saying, look for money when you can, not when you have to.
[00:35:25] Speaker A: Right, Right. Yeah. I guess again, even for this show, the money adjustment and even for these courses, like I wasn't seeking where I wound up in this seven figure sales program. I didn't even realize, honestly, it's a whirlwind now. I was like, how did I wind up in a sales program? So I love what you're saying with regards to marketing is not sales. Advertising is not sales. Marketing and advertising are different. There's distinctions to be made there. And there's this. When I hear you say what you said, I think in terms of funnels. So at the top of the funnel you have people that don't know they even have a problem. So you're just presenting yourself by marketing to say, serve a certain problem. Then the next tier in the middle of the funnel is people who know they have a problem but aren't quite sure what to do about it or looking for solutions.
[00:36:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And not even a problem, just the need.
[00:36:14] Speaker A: Need a need.
[00:36:15] Speaker B: Okay, Nobody needs a BMW. But if you want the BMW, it becomes a need.
[00:36:21] Speaker A: Right, right. That's a good, that's a good point. And so, and then when you get to, to the bottom of the funnel and this is where state, like you said, it boils down to. Eventually it boils down to a sale because everything is like a conversion downwards through the funnel until you get to the point where you're having a conversation where it's like you, you, you are at this place because you, the lead or prospect. Prospect perceive that I have or. And I have marketed to you and you believe or are ready to believe or hoping to believe that I have the solution to your problem. And so once we get to that level, then the sales process itself. This is one of the. Honestly been one of the most interesting things to me about this particular mentorship program because I'm in a room, and I've told you this before, anywhere between four to 800 people, depending on the day. And it's a virtual room, it's a zoom room. And every week it's an hourly like. And it's broken out too. Like, some weeks are marketing, some weeks are sales. And it's kind of like an alternation between sales and marketing, sales and marketing. And so we learn all these processes in the marketing process. And then we learn like the steps through the conversion when you're doing the sales, which I just getting the insight into it. I don't want to get too divergent here. I'm trying to relate to what you're saying. But when I'm striking. Striking a chord within myself, and one of the things that kind of was like turned on within me and you've also triggered it now was I used to feel. I'm going to use the chiropractic example because that's the one I'm most familiar with. I used to feel when anybody got to where I'm talking to them, and there's some truth to this, like, I needed to convince them that this was what they needed. And sometimes that works, and sometimes that doesn't work, work. But what I. One of the things that was like a mental shift for me is that at the top of the funnel, if you're marketing enough and your broad funnel, the top of the funnel is wide enough, then you're not so desperate when you're getting down to the bottom of the funnel in the sense that I gotta close. I gotta close every single person. I gotta close every single person. And I think for the salesperson, yes, the win is the close. And I think about investing when you talk about letting your ego by the side. I took a trade today and. And I lost. I lost it. I had two good trades, was feeling super confident, gave it all back today, had a loss. And then I just had to reset and be like, okay, why did this one work? And then write down, okay, what, you know, what was wrong with my strategy in doing this? So, like, there are these steps in the process. And if you're cognizant of the steps and where you're at within the process, then you can increase your likelihood of success. Again, if your pool is small and you're trying to convince everybody, then it could be stressful. But if your pool is large and you just need to attract to you the people that are in need. You're I like that you made that distinction between need and problem are in need of your solution. Then by the time you get down to the sales process, it can can be a more relaxed process than sometimes it may or may not feel for individuals.
[00:39:36] Speaker B: Well, and again, when I'm teaching it, the first thing I teach is actually what I consider the second important. The first thing again is to distinguish marketing from advertising from sales. I and I have always simply viewed sales as again the objective right determination of outcome of how effective my marketing and advertising has been. So approaching those three things from differing definitions, the most important thing, and this applies to marketing, I have never ever, once, ever, and I'm actually going to use you as an example of how this is effective. I maintain a relationship with you and a whole lot other people from your class and a whole lot of other people from the classes that were, you know, went through while in that short time that I was a clinic director. And the reason keeps coming back. I have never ever once sold myself as a chiropractor, as an investor, as a business consultant, as a car washer, a lawnmower. I have always sold myself as a teacher. First and foremost, when I'm approaching someone from the point of view and it doesn't matter if this is a one on one elevator pitch or I'm in front of, you know, a thousand person lecture hall, I try to teach because the most powerful, stable, reliable relationships you've ever had in your life that anybody has ever had in their lives, you respect people from whom you have learned something valuable. Valuable.
[00:41:32] Speaker A: Yes, I agree.
[00:41:33] Speaker B: Parents, they, there are teachers that you and I have had that everybody's had over the course of time. You wouldn't, you wouldn't spit to save their lives. There are other people you would walk through the fire to try to save them. And the difference between them is there people you respect because you learned something valuable. Parents, friends, peers, teachers. So I always, first and foremost, most never present myself as somebody who's trying to sell something, but rather as somebody who's trying to teach you about something. And it sounds like the gentleman that did the infinite banking presentation for you was very effective in that regard. Again, other if you didn't feel like you learned something that needed additional investigation, we would not have, we'd never have had that conversation. Conversation.
[00:42:24] Speaker A: Yeah, man, I, I love everything that you just said and I love how you kind of, we brought it full circle because we started with that Sales call on the, on the whole life. Whole life insurance, the infinite banking concept. And we, and we brought it back to the idea of sales. And like you were starting to make the distinction. And the correct one is marketing, advertising, sales, these are all different. And then I love the way. And this is how I really want to. I want to remember it. I want other people to remember it, too, is the teaching aspect, because you're exactly right. And I'm a great example of that. I trust you. I reached out to you because I learned a lot from you at my time at national, and I remembered that. And then when something came up, I reached out to you again and it was another opportunity for me to also learn from you. And I really appreciate you having you on for that. I hope that, you know, before I'm going to wrap it up here, but before I wrap it up, I want you. I like to give my guests an opportunity to leave people with a final thought. And I think there was a gem with the teaching thing. But if you have something that you think is valuable for people to know and understand, what would that be?
[00:43:38] Speaker B: Well, off camera, we had talked about the topics that you and I, I discussed in, in terms of, of doing the show obviously can't be covered in one show. And there were several things that, and, you know, we talked about. We, we were going to get a cadence, the conversation was going to lead itself. I think we covered some really, really good stuff. But to the extent this was well received and you'll be getting feedback, I'm sure what I'll do is I'll close with.
I'll close with, let's call it a. A teaser or appetizer. And it's something that you started to touch on back at. Back toward the beginning of the conversation, and that is that the statistic says 90%.
You'll hear anything from 80 to 95% of new businesses fail within the first five years.
Anybody who's ever thought about entrepreneurialism at all has heard that statistic. It makes me legitimately angry when I hear people say that and stop. And they always stop.
The reason it makes me angry is because that's like me coming to you and saying, mark, you know, if you eat or drink poison, it'll kill you.
And then I walk away. I have not given you any, any actionable intelligence at all.
All I've done is make you afraid to ever try to taste anything new because it might be poison and might kill you.
[00:45:18] Speaker A: Right.
[00:45:19] Speaker B: Well, is it true that 85 to 95% of new businesses fail. Absolutely.
However, I don't seek to make people afraid to go out and try to start a new business. And that's all that statist it does. It makes you afraid to try. It makes the risk seem too big. Well, for all of my years running my own businesses, for all my years consulting with dozens and dozens of other businesses across the entire spectrum of industries, I'm talking about everything from preschools to manufacturing locomotives and everything in between in order for that statistic to become valuable. Valuable. I can't just say 85 to 95% are going to fail. I have to tell you why they fail. If I can tell you why 85 to 95% of new businesses fail, I can then teach you what those things are, help you avoid them and maximize your opportunity for success. Dramatically improve your options odds.
[00:46:29] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:46:30] Speaker B: 85 to 95% of carpentry contractors, new carpenter businesses, new carpentry contractors, 85 to 95% of them fail within the first five years. Do you believe it's because the carpenter does not know how to build a deck?
[00:46:48] Speaker A: No, obviously not. No.
[00:46:50] Speaker B: No. Building a deck is one particular skill set set.
Managing a successful business is a different skill set. The beauty is it's a heck of a lot easier to learn the business skill set than it is the carpentry.
[00:47:08] Speaker A: Skill set is a positive note and that's a good way to frame it. Yeah.
[00:47:12] Speaker B: So anyway, if we do this again, I would toss that out as a jumping off point for more up on how to conduct your entrepreneurial venture in a more likelihood of success.
[00:47:29] Speaker A: Yeah. No, I love that. Yeah. You actually made me think of the trading statistic also that 96% of traders fail or 96% of investors are no better than the index. So it's all of these maxims that we hear that to your point, discouragement us from trying or making the effort, which serves no one, really. So it's better to recognize that you are. If you choose to embark on something, it's going to be challenging. It might insp. It should hopefully inspire the right people to take action because it's kind of like you think that I can't do this, but there's something. There's a will within me that believes that I can. And maybe that's a listener out there and maybe that's something that one of our listeners needs to hear. And I'm definitely going to have you back on again because one of the things that I really wanted to talk to you about is options, because I do use options.
I've changed the way that I've used them throughout the years. And that'll also be a teaser. And hopefully, like you said, we'll have more conversations like these on various different topics that are related to entrepreneurship and investing and a little bit of trading down the road. So Matt, please stay on. I'm going to talk to you afterwards. And for everybody that was listening to this episode, thank you for listening. I hope that you gained some value and got some nuggets. I did, for sure. And I'd like to thank My guest again, Dr. Matthew Matigan. Matt, where can people find you if they're looking for you? Where's the best place to reach out to you?
[00:49:06] Speaker B: Simplest way is through email. Mmatiganlueworldam.com okay.
[00:49:11] Speaker A: Emma teganlueworld.com blueworld am blueworldam.com and yeah.
[00:49:21] Speaker B: Asset managers is just asking too much of anybody.
[00:49:24] Speaker A: Am I? Okay, that'll help. Remember, blueworldam.com so M. Matigan and actually spell your name because I don't. I It'll probably be on the podcast episode, but this way people can. Oh, I see.
[00:49:35] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:49:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:36] Speaker B: I didn't know if there'd be a graphic, but it is.
[00:49:38] Speaker A: There is a. It's already up there. I see it, but it's M A T I G I a n. So mmaworld am.com that is correct. Perfect. Yeah. Thank you for listening. Thanks everybody for watching this episode or listening or however you're getting this content. And we'll see you on the next one. Bye.
Thank you for watching this episode of the Money Adjustment. If you want more like comment and subscribe, you can follow me on X Ark Kramer until the next episode. Stay healthy and wealthy.
