Bitcoin for Gen Wealth

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Well, volatility. And another asset would be, let's say, Nvidia, let's say six directors in a year do something silly or get caught, you know, with hookers and blow like this. These types of things are risks. Or let's say they have a problem with their supply chain so that they can't bang things out as quickly as they had been. That's volatility. But bitcoin isn't really volatile at all. Bitcoin itself is perfectly stable. It's constant. What's volatile is people's perception of it. So, like, I would argue that bitcoin is actually the most, most as stable of all of the assets. But it's just the perception around it that adds a dollar value to it. Perception changes wildly, and that's because it's new. But. But over the course of time, as more and more people start to understand what they have and start to hold through the dips, that that'll lead to less volatility. [00:00:52] Speaker B: Hello, welcome to the Money Adjustment. I'm your host, Dr. Mark Kramer. Are you interested in what's moving markets and your money? [00:01:00] Speaker A: Bitcoin is now proof of money. I like Michael Saylor's quote. He said, if you can remember 12 words, you become the money. [00:01:18] Speaker B: Should we leave our audience with that? [00:01:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Become the money. [00:01:22] Speaker B: Become the money. Let's get started. Hey, Sam. [00:01:26] Speaker A: Hi. So this is Mark. Say hi, Mark. Hi, Mark. Good boy. [00:01:30] Speaker B: Hi, Sam. Nice to meet you. [00:01:34] Speaker A: Say, nice to meet you. Good boy. [00:01:37] Speaker B: Nice to meet you too. I like your shirt. [00:01:40] Speaker A: And can you tell Mark what is. What is good money? Bitcoin. Yeah. [00:01:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Starting them early. [00:01:51] Speaker A: I'm brainwashing him, Mark. [00:01:53] Speaker B: I love it. No, I'm trying to with my kids as well. They're a little bit older. My youngest is three. How old are you, Sam? [00:02:01] Speaker A: Two. Two. [00:02:03] Speaker B: Two. [00:02:04] Speaker A: He's two. [00:02:05] Speaker B: Awesome. [00:02:06] Speaker A: Okay, say bye bye now to Mark. Bye, Mark. [00:02:12] Speaker B: Bye, Sam. It was nice to meet you. [00:02:14] Speaker A: Mark and daddy are gonna do some work and then I'll meet you later. We're going to the barber, aren't we? Yeah. Little cat say merry Christmas. Good boy. [00:02:25] Speaker B: Merry Christmas. [00:02:26] Speaker A: I'll see you soon. Bye. Bye. Do you see that? Could, could you hit the light on your way past? Really? Yeah, absolutely. My brother actually had curls like that. I remember him when we were kids, but he's since buzzed his head. So Sam's the only one who continues to have curls. And it's a. It's a novelty for sure. Yeah. [00:02:45] Speaker B: That's fun. So I'm. I'm super Excited to have you on today, Sam, because I feel like you. You're starting to. I don't know if this is the right. I'm newer in the space than you, so for me to say this feels weird, but, like, finding your voice, like, when I hear you speak, I'm like, okay, I know where Sam's perspective's coming from, and I can kind of. My mind mentally preps for what I'm about to hear. And that was one of the reasons that I reached out to you, is because I can relate to you a little bit more. And I think you're noticing that people who are newer to the space can relate to you more, and there's a real opportunity there. [00:03:22] Speaker A: Yeah, well, that's kind of why I speak on spaces and put myself out there, I guess, because when I get into this thing, couldn't. My perception was that everyone was here from 2010 until maybe the latest 2019 or 2020. And I felt sort of. I didn't feel part of it. I didn't feel as though the amount of bitcoin that I had was. I felt late. But then I sort of figured it out. Hey, I'm only late now, but in a year's time or two years time, or three years time, I'll become just like all of the rest of these people who have been here when the next new person arrives. So I don't know, I felt a little bit of an obligation as the last guy through the door to immediately sort of start letting new people know this isn't just a bunch of millionaires and billionaires. This is regular people who are trying to improve their future. [00:04:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. It reminds me of Natalie Brunel's book, Bitcoin is for Everyone. I really think she's gone to something with that term. And what you just said made. That's where my headspace went, is it's. You see an asset go up thousands of fold, and then clearly you. It's rational to think, wow, I really missed the boat. I really missed the party on this one. But then when you learn about the asset and you see what the potential is in the future, and you realize and you hear people say it, and it surprises me every time, but it. I. I do feel it. Like it's still early. Like, bitcoin's journey is just getting started. [00:05:09] Speaker A: There'S lots of different ways of looking at that. And. Excuse me. So you could have been in Bitcoin in 2015, and you could be getting out now, and lots of OGs have gotten out in the second half of this year. You and I could get in now and stay for 20 years. We've got more out of this thing than the guy who was in in 2015 and got out. Now. Does that make sense? [00:05:39] Speaker B: That. Yeah, that makes sense. That's a nice way to frame it. [00:05:42] Speaker A: Yeah. There's like. We may not see the explosive parabolic like moves within a couple of days or a week or over a quarter, but there's enormous upside left in this asset. We're a 1.6 trillion asset in a global monetary system that has gone over $1,000,000,000. So over probably at about 1,100 trillion of total monies or assets, depending on what you call money, either currency, gold, silver, yada, yada, yada, stocks, real estate, collectibles. So we're at 1.6 trillion. It's minute, but it's the best form of money. So there's a contradiction there. Bitcoin's growth isn't going to come magically like some people think. It's going to come by people rotating out of those other assets into Bitcoin. It's not new money. The money's already there. It's just a matter of reallocations. And when you're seeing those reallocations into an asset that's finite, that's where your growth comes from. So I believe there's enormous, enormous upside. So much so that when our kids are adults, maybe let's say college age, or let's say when they've come out of college and they start to learn about paying bills and things like that, I think that they're going to look back and they're going to say, wow, my dad was so early. My dad got here in 2023 or he got here in 2028 or even 2030, and they'll be looking on us as being super, super early. I really do believe that. [00:07:31] Speaker B: Yeah, that's encouraging. You said something. I just talked to British actually, and you said something that reminded me of something he said, which was, yeah, there was kind of like this exponential growth in the beginning because it was a more speculative type asset, but. But now it's moving into a very good savings vehicle where you can see a nice return. It sounds strange to say, but relatively low risk. Now people see an asset like Bitcoin and they see the volatility and they think, oh, that's it's risky. But there's like a big difference between volatility and risk. And outside of like the quantum fud, you know, in terms of the asset, something that's going to rock the core of the asset, it's been pretty de. Risked. [00:08:16] Speaker A: Well, volatility. And another asset would be, let's say Nvidia, let's say six directors in a year do something silly or get caught, you know, with hookers and blow or, you know, like these types of things are risks. Or let's say they have a problem with their supply chain so that they can't bang things out as quickly as they had been. That, that's volatility. But bitcoin isn't really volatile at all. Bitcoin itself is perfectly stable. It's constant. What's volatile is people's perception of it. So, like, I would argue that bitcoin is actually the most stable of all of the assets, but it's just the perception around it that adds a dollar value to it. Perception changes wildly. But. But over the course of time, as more and more people start to understand what they have and start to hold through the dips, that'll lead to less volatility. And I also think on that question of volatility, the Nasdaq from the second quarter onwards is going to trade 23 5, so not quite 24 7, but 23. 5. And that reduces the burden on bitcoin as being the most liquid asset. So, for example, you and I, are you in Central or Eastern time? [00:09:42] Speaker B: Eastern time. [00:09:43] Speaker A: You're in Eastern. So we're in the same time zone. Let's say we check the markets tonight before we go to bed, 10pm or whatever, and we see, oh my God, Japan's like something. There's a black swan event. We can't sell, we can't adjust our portfolios. The only thing we can possibly move is bitcoin. And I think that places a huge burden on bitcoin as being the most liquid part of people's portfolios. And that's where a lot of that Bitcoin is very sensitive to geopolitical and macro events that happen outside of market hours. But if you have the NASDAQ trading 23. 5 and we check and something's happening at 10pm tonight, we could dump our Nvidia stocks. We could dump other things other than moving bitcoin. So I think that's going to level the playing field a little bit in terms of bitcoin being the sole bellwether for how the markets are going to open tomorrow, if you get what I'm saying. [00:10:50] Speaker B: Yeah, that's interesting. I don't think I've heard someone explain at Least I'm not familiar with someone explaining it that way, but I do appreciate what you're saying, and it makes sense to me. One of the places that my mind started to go when we talk about the volatility of bitcoin is I can hear Dark's voice in my head because he kind of triggered this in me where he said, the dollar is volatile. And I remember when I first heard him say it, it kind of. I was like, what? I had to like, stop. Stop and think about it for a second. But the idea is that the dollar isn't worth what it used to be. And so the volatility, it seems like, oh, a dollar is still. It's what? There's still a one on the. On the bill, on the. On the currency. But that one doesn't carry the same weight in the marketplace that it did. So that one is relative to like 5 cents of what that one was a hundred years ago, for example, versus you get into one. Bitcoin is one Bitcoin. And the appreciation, the depreciating, it's not depreciating. It's an appreciating asset, but it's a deflationary asset. It actually, over time, you can buy more with it. So then when I. When I heard. When you were talking about volatility, that's where my mind went, is that when we get into the conversation between volatility compared to other assets and what a lot of assets are measured in still today is dollars. And the seeming stable. Stability. Stableness of a dollar is not really. It's misleading. [00:12:19] Speaker A: Yeah, there's a. There's a very unfortunately named thing called a stablecoin. There's nothing stable about a stablecoin. [00:12:29] Speaker B: Right. [00:12:30] Speaker A: Because it's pegged the dollar. Right. So ironically, the most stable coin is bitcoin. None of the other coins have that stability. Because if you look at altcoins and then especially meme coins or any other garbage, there are creators, there's a CEO there, there's people who can either release more coins or mine more coins, or the market cap isn't determined yet. So you don't know. It's like the dollar, what you have today may have a certain value, but they could flood the market tomorrow. So the only one that that doesn't apply to is bitcoin, because with all fiat currencies, even with gold, I think this is the lesson that gold bugs are going to learn. Price of gold now is high. What do you think's happening around the world? All of those projects to go and get more gold, which were deemed too expensive four or five years ago are now feasible. So you're going to see more gold come to market. That's what happens. And so the market stabilizes. And Peter Schiff wouldn't admit that, but that's the truth. So if you've gone into a mine and you've mined all the easy to get to stuff gold, and then you reach a point where we're going to need new equipment, we're going to need more men, we're going to need. We have to go down much further into that vein. It's going to cost a lot more money. You sort of pull back and you wait five years, and then when the price goes up, it's suddenly worth your while to buy the new equipment and go in and get that extra gold. I mean, the earth's full of gold. There are asteroids floating around in space that are full of gold. The supply can increase at any time. But with bitcoin, finite supply, I mean, that's the whole. To me, that's what attracted me to bitcoin. When I. When I first finally took the dive to research what this thing was, that's the first thing jumped out at me, huh? Finite supply. That's unusual. So that's. That's kind of what made me take the position that I have finite and. [00:14:30] Speaker B: Truly finite in that we can say with confidence the number is 21 million. And it's mathematically verifiable. Why that is, which is fascinating to me, because gold, if you say, well, what it. Yes, it's finite in supply relative to other materials like these precious metals. But how finite? What's the exact. What is the number? What's the denominator? And without a clear denominator, you can never really know what the value of something is, because if your denominator is infinity, then you, you know, what are we even talking about? [00:15:05] Speaker A: And like, you could compare that to just about anything, really, let's say fresh water in the world. My father, God rest him, used to say the next world war will be about fresh water. Like, at some point, if population continues to grow, you're going to struggle with fresh water. But I mean, the cost of desalination or desalination is prohibitive right now, but if the demand for fresh water increases suddenly, it makes the cost of desalinization more feasible. So pretty much, pretty much everything you look at, you can increase the supply if the demand is there. Like I'm looking at an Apple computer in front of me. If 4 billion people around the world decide I absolutely need an imac. Well, they're going to ramp up production, right? So more or less anything in the world except humans, I guess. But I mean I'm old enough to remember when they were talking about human cloning and they cloned the sheep. Haven't heard about that in a long time. But you know, theoretically it's possible. So just about everything else, real estate in New York City where I am, if an extra 2 million people move into the city right, right now there's too much supply. People are leaving New York city. But if 2 million people wanted to move into New York City, you're going to see new high rise buildings go up to meet the demand. So yeah, not to labor on the point, but there's very few things in this world like if we were already rich, if we were billionaires, if you were handed a billion dollars right now, where do you go to put that? If we were business partners and we had a billion dollars sitting in our balance sheet and we sat down to debate this for a month, where are we going to put that billion dollars to be guaranteed that it's not going to bleed away or a silver said the melting ice cube? You know, Picasso paintings. Well, there could be a gallery in Spain somewhere that's been sitting on another 25 Picasso paintings that weren't known about until now. So yeah, kind of a contorted rant. [00:17:12] Speaker B: But it's a type of wealth preservation. And when you talk about Picassos, that's when I think, okay, now we're talking wealth. What do the ultra wealthy do to store their wealth? Because you and I don't have access, easy access to owning a Picasso, but you and I do have access to owning bitcoin. And that is one of to me still one of the very appealing draws to it. I was going to say for now because British correctly identifies at some point it's going to become, for a whole bitcoiner, it's going to become somewhat cost prohibitive. At some point it is going to skip scale out of that. But in the meantime, if you're still stacking sats and you're going and thinking about things in satoshis, you can still get in like people can still. There's like still this window of opportunity for the whole coiner for the people on the earlier cusp. So you have the people that are competing at the highest level. Like I think of obviously Blackrock and Satoshi has the most and then I think second to that is Blackrock and then Sailor is really giving Everybody a run for their money. And Sailor's an interesting guy because he, in a strange way, represents more of the common man because he's really just this individual bucking the system versus BlackRock and Larry Fink. They are this. They are the system. [00:18:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Just on that point, that British mix. So. So I think the goalpost will sort of shift. I agree with British. When I came into the scene first and I first heard British, I was like, man, who. Who the heck is this? This guy? I didn't like his brash, abrupt sort of nature. But I've since come to, you know, I really like British, and I like the message he carries to that point about getting to a one whole bitcoin. So right now, Mark, not a lot of people have $88,000 sitting around doing nothing. You know, takes a little bit of effort to make $88,000 available for one bitcoin. Like, even if you are comfortably off, it still takes a little bit of effort to free up $88,000 from somewhere. I don't keep $88,000 in my checking account, and I'm sure very small percentage of people do. But the point I'm making is as bitcoin as an asset gets more and more legitimized and becomes more mainstream, I think you're going to see people doing different things to get to one full bitcoin. Like, I think you're going to see people selling their house and renting. They're going to look at their house and they're going to say, why do I have. This house is worth $500,000. I've got $250,000 of equity here. That equity is doing nothing. Why don't I just release that equity? Especially if you're beyond whatever state you're in. Like here in New York, it's beyond two years where you don't pay capital gains tax on the profit, so your equity's there in full and put it into bitcoin. So I think people are going to start doing that. And even further down the line, Mark, even with the punitive nature of an early withdrawal from a 401k, for example, I think there will come a time when people will say, whoa, Actually, where I see things going, in five years, even if I'm hit with the penalty and the taxes for withdrawing my 401k, it's still going to be worth it to put 50% of my 401k into one full bitcoin, as opposed to sitting on this 100% that's denominated in dollars and which is heavily reliant on the stock market, continuing to hit new all time highs. So my point being, you're going to go through different waves of how difficult it is to get to one full coin. I think people will, people will be more willing in the future. I know people who say, oh no, there's no way I could get to one full Bitcoin, but they're driving a $70,000 car. Do you get what I'm saying? [00:21:18] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that. I definitely appreciate that. [00:21:21] Speaker A: As it starts to go mainstream, I think you're gonna get more people who will say, I'm gonna drive a junker for three years and instead of buying a $70,000 car, I'm going to buy one Bitcoin and drive a junker. Do you get what I'm saying? [00:21:37] Speaker B: I totally get what you're saying. So like an equity in the house is going to get you, if you're lucky, maybe 5, 2 to 5%, 10% in a good year. You know, on average, I don't know what the average is for housing prices. Maybe 8%, 6 to 8% annual over extended periods of time. The CAGR on a house, I don't know what the exact number is on that, but it's less than what you're going to get on bitcoin. And that's kind of like as soon as that went off in my head. I appreciate what you're saying and it's interesting because I was into bitcoin before I got into some of Grant Cardone's stuff because I was looking at the multifamily real estate and the multifamily properties. And then when I started to look at that relative to bitcoin, I couldn't wrap my mind around the CAGR and the, the first off, ease of entry. It's much easier to get into a fraction of a bitcoin than it is to get into a house or multifamily real estate especially. And you don't have to necessarily have a lot of partners to get involved in bitcoin. You can start accumulating your own sovereignty at whatever scale you're going to accumulate. And my second point on that is, let's say we move past the one. Maybe it's not this cycle, but like, forget even I don't want to get into the cycle thing yet. But let's say we get past this point where it's easy to get to one bitcoin and all of a sudden the narrative becomes like, get to 0.1 bitcoin get to some fractional point of bitcoin and something that Simon said, who I've heard you say something similar about Simon that you said about British. And I felt exactly like you do about both of them. And then I listened to what they do and I was like, oh, wait a minute, I see what's happening. If you can kind of get past certain things that are a little bit jarring at first, you're like, I hear what they're saying. And so what Simon said recently was you need to start thinking about your, whatever bitcoin you own as bitcoin already being worth $10 million. So if you're already starting from a framework that at some point in the future, because of all the things that we're talking about, of why it's going to go up in value, its scarcity, the demand for it, the problem that it solves, if you start thinking about it that way, even 0.51 of 10 million is a million. So then you're already kind of looking at that million dollar asset, which changes how you're thinking about how you were accumulating it and storing it and structuring it so that you can ideally because it's, it should be a general generational asset. How you're going to structure, protecting that asset right now when it's in its 80,000 level and however much you own, it's, it's harder to think that way. But you have to, you have to project yourself out to where you think the asset could go to your point earlier, like maybe we're going to see over 20, period greater gains that we saw over the last 15, like the last 15, that early adoption cycle. Certainly people really made out like bandits from a trading perspective. Not that that's how it started, which is, that's its own conversation. Right. The revolutionary aspect of it. But in terms of what the potential of the asset is and where it. [00:24:53] Speaker A: Could go from here just to return to real estate for a second. So bitcoin doesn't demand. Well, it's kind of different because you're buying it straight as opposed to putting it on credit. But bitcoin doesn't demand that you save for five years first to get a down payment. You know, so that's first point. The second point is whatever that CAGR is for real estate, what's inflation doing? So a 6% CAGR may sound fantastic now right now they're telling us, I think I saw this morning, Anthony Pomp said Truflation is a 2.2% officially through the Fed's numbers. But I'm going down to the supermarket and I used to look at a tray of three ribeye steaks in the supermarket and not that long ago I used to say well if they're over $30 I'm not buying them, that's $10 a stake and the last day go down that has now gotten to $45. I'm saying to myself now if they're over $45, well I'm not buying them at all now. So the point I'm making is real inflation is probably on a par with that real estate again over time and it'll probably there will be a point at some time in the future definitely before your 30 year mortgage ends or your 50 year mortgage that they're trying to put us towards. There will come a time where inflation where that curve gets steeper and your real estate curve just continues at that flat sort of cagr. And the last point I'll make about real estate is real estate as an investment is different. Obviously the investment you make with Grand Cardone, he's paying the maintenance and that's all taken care of as part of the portfolio. But if you like, if you're buying a house there is maintenance, there's home insurance, there's all of the risks. Like if you go on vacation and you forgot to leave your heat on at a certain level you could have busted pipes. There's also the problem of you can do whatever you want to control your house, but unless you're the mayor of town and even then you've no control over the city or the town might decide to put in a nuclear plant quarter of a mile down the road that completely devalues your house at some point in the future. So there's lots of the employment in your town may suddenly leave. There may be a climate event where people no longer wish to live in your area so the value of your asset goes down. So those may seem like extreme examples but there are a lot of factors with owning a property and trying to hold your wealth by owning a property that don't exist. They just don't exist. With Bitcoin, once you get that bitcoin into self custody, I mean you can literally walk around as long as you don't get forgetful or forget where you left your prompt or whatever, there's no cost to maintain, there's no threat and in fact it, the value is absolutely going up over time with no factors other than fud, I guess temporarily driving it down. So the real estate like we actually listed this apartment a couple of months ago we didn't get the offer we wanted. So we've held off until the spring, but we're going to list it again in the spring. Now we don't have too much equity, but we're going to put that equity into bitcoin. Like there's, this is a cooperative apartment and the kegr there is much, much lower. Cooperative mortgages for cooperative apartments work, you pay all your interest in the first 10 to 12 years, so you're not really building up any equity. So yeah, long drawn out point, but there's lots of people out there, Rajet Somi up in Canada who has a lot of spreadsheets where he shows you and he's a certified, whatever the Canadian alternative is for certified public accountant and he shows you on an Excel spreadsheet the benefits of bitcoin over real estate. So yeah, bitcoin wins every time in my mind, regardless of what it's worth from day to day or week to week. If you sort of zoom out, I see it as a pretty. This is not financial advice, but I see it as the safest bet for either preserving or growing wealth. [00:29:09] Speaker B: Now you're preaching to the choir with me. But like you, we all come into the space from a different way vantage point and hearing you talk and I think I my association went to the real estate is because when I was starting to look at grant stuff I would hear, I recall a couple people saying, oh, the guy that makes you sell your house. And so like, and when I first heard that for me growing up, like that was horrifying like to think about that was horrifying because like I was raised with the mother that said you have to own your house, you have to. Like that was the most important thing. I'm you know, middle class American family, I grew up in the midwest suburbs in the Illinois and, and that the ideology was your house is your most important asset. So the idea of someone telling you to give up your house, especially a billionaire telling you to give up your house is like, oh, he just wants the money from my house. But when I started to think about these things, the way you're describing it and thinking it through, what you really own, you don't own your house because if you don't pay your taxes, the state takes your house. So like Simon said another thing recently that like just really hit home. I'm like, yeah, it's a serfdom. We don't own our land, we rent it and we have to pay interest on that rent. So it's very frustrating, but not. But the important aspect of it is the equity component. So if you're looking at the equity component, that's what's the built in value that you actually as the owner of a house get to take away versus if you have rent. If you're a renter, you're not building equity and that's, that is a problem. But what you're talking about is not just renting. It's like if you're just trying to capitalize on some equity and you, you pay your rent and then you take, invest into something else, whatever that asset may be, and you could potentially outpace what you make in a home. Don't take my word for it, not financial advice, but just think it through, like do your own due diligence in your thought process and then you start to appreciate some of what we're talking about here. [00:31:16] Speaker A: I'm going to guess I'm a little older than you and I was raised, and I was raised in Ireland. And so the advice that we were given, not that there was too much money around when I was a kid, I have to say Ireland in the 70s was, you know, not very well off at all. But we were told to save your money. So the advice wasn't to buy a house, the advice was to save your money. So if you're earning whatever you're earning every week, like my grandparents and older people would have said to you, it doesn't matter how small your paycheck is if you're taking out a percentage of that every week and saving it. And like they weren't talking about saving it in some account that was giving you a return, they were talking about saving it in a box at home. So that's what I grew up along with. And then Ireland went through a period of an absolute boom. The first real in our history period where there was a lot of prosperity, but of course it was all built on credit. And that came crashing down in 2008. So from the mid-1990s until 2008, probably 12 years, I would say everyone, like the message was, you have to buy a house, you have to buy a house, you have to buy two houses, buy three. And then the whole thing came crashing down. So, yeah, that messaging has changed over time. And the message for sure now, like anyone who's paying attention knows that like I said this recently on a Space and people kind of pushed back on it. I said that the banks and the government and the powers that be, it's sort of an unspoken message to the public right now that you have to get into assets. If you're relying on going out and earning a paycheck and living paycheck to paycheck, doesn't work anymore, just doesn't work. That's the message of that K shaped economy. They're kind of saying to everyone, hey, get to the upper branch of the K and you should be fine. Because we're going to have inflation, we're going to have less jobs, we're going to have higher taxes. So the only way around that is to try and find something that outpaces those headwinds. And for me at least, that thing is bitcoin. [00:33:28] Speaker B: Yeah. I have landed on the same place looking at other assets that you can invest in. And I think I was, I am persuaded by Michael Saylor who makes a very articulate, powerful case for why bitcoin is the pristine asset. And there's a few different things in what we're saying. One is at least if you're putting in a house, maybe you're, you're, maybe you're keeping up with inflation at best or, or maybe outperforming a little bit. If you're saving, like you were saying in a shoebox, you're screwed because that's the melting ice at its purest form. There's nothing to be gained from saving without any type of interest. On top of that, Bitcoin as a mechanism, that's the big, that's the big narrative now. It is a savings technology. And as that type of a mechanism, we actually have something that you could set aside, money. And it's, it's funny again, because it is relatively low risk people. It sounds, when you say low risk about bitcoin, I, people who don't understand the space maybe think you're nuts because they just see or hear the fud. You know, what about quantum, what about, you know, hacking the network? Which is, you know, once we do a deep dive with Tomer, you're like, that's never going to happen. So there, the four year, we didn't touch on it yet, but the four year cycle, right. So I'm one of those people. I, I can't, I was aware of Bitcoin in 2009, was paying attention to it casually up until 2020. It wasn't until 2020 that I saw Mike Novogratz on CNBC and he was the one who really, something he said really triggered me to start talking about it with my friends and trying to get people who I knew were interested in investing to take a Look at bitcoin. And, and then I was educated. My bitcoin education was initially through being educated in a four year cycle. So I took a course because at the time that people who were aware of this theory and psychology were promoting their courses on how to take advantage of the four year cycle. So it's like I was indoctrinated in that sense. And what happened is, is because I thought I was going to get cute trying to trade around that I don't have as much bitcoin today as I had in the like four years ago. Which is really, really sad to me. To the extent like when, now that I understand what the actual asset actually is, I'm like, oh, you don't know what if you're selling bitcoin because of price action, then you don't you. That is true. You don't know what you own. [00:36:15] Speaker A: Yeah. So I sold a little bit of bitcoin recently. Not because of price action, not because I thought I was going to beat, beat the market. I'm a stay at home dad with Sam right now. So I don't have zero income, so. And I have a lot of dental work that I've been putting off and putting off and putting off and it's getting more expensive and more expensive. So I decided about six weeks ago, you know what, maybe more, maybe eight weeks ago I decided I'm just going to get this done. So I've had four implants and I've paid for another two, which I'm having done in January. And as it turns out I sold enough bitcoin to pay for that when it was 117,000. So I'm kind of looking, every time I brush my teeth, I can see the four metal caps in my jaw and I'm kind of going, got lucky. I sort of push back against this notion that you should never sell your bitcoin because I mean my stack of bitcoin, if I never sold that, and then if I raised Sam with the same philosophy to never sell your bitcoin because you might have a kid, I mean, what's the point? You're making yourself poorer because you've actually put a considerable amount of your savings or your income like into cold storage where you're not going to touch it. The whole point now people would say borrow against it. And that's a valid, that is a valid option. But yeah, to go back to how you introduced this, trying to time the market. Thank God, when I got in first, I just stumbled across the right messaging that, you know, you're not going to time this thing. You just can't. I think the first podcast that I watched was Robin Syre. And in the days after I discovered his podcast, he had some outstanding guests, like people who really understood this thing. And so I listened and each video was about an hour long. And I really got the message. Within my first week I really got the message that there's a litany of people out there who crashed and burned because they thought they were smarter than bitcoin and they were going to try and sell high and buy low. Yeah, you might get lucky, but yeah, you're not going to outsmart this thing. And I think if you look at this year, the way this year has gone, I think a lot of people got into treasury companies and they thought, I'll just buy this stock in these treasuries and they're going to outperform bitcoin. And those people are having to eat humble pie and come back into bitcoin now. And I think that explains why you have a lot of grumpy people around. They're not going to admit that, of course. And then very recently, people went off on the next shiny rock zcash and then when it dumped, they had to come back and eat humble pies. Thank God I got that message early, Mark, that there may always seem something more attractive that promises to outperform bitcoin. But nah, look at it over time. There isn't really anything else out there. So yeah, time in the market is better than timing the market for sure. [00:39:24] Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting because you said there's like these maxims like never sell your bitcoin. But you pointed out there are scenarios like we're living in a real world here. It's kind of a cool chant to say never sell your bitcoin. But when you have practical expenses and it isn't an asset that you. The idea is you're going to hold it for a long period of time. If you're going to see the value that the asset promises, you want to hold it for a long period of time. So this is where it kind of gets when I think these things. I feel blasphemous to the bitcoin today community because they really, their messaging is very clear and it's about self custody and they have a very strong case to make for for it, which I fully appreciate being said. I didn't know what bitcoin today was at the beginning of this year. It's all new to me. The whole space is new to me. The people in the space are new to me and I'm coming as. And then he talks about like just storing your bit, just storing bitcoin. And then when you get to the age where you actually need it, then you just start trimming off the 4%. Like so there's a whole strategy to do that. And I just got off this call with British and British does. One of the reasons I had British on was because he does it more like I am doing it now and it's not something that I, I don't have. I don't necessarily have the gravitas. British has to go into a space and just tell everybody to F off because he's confident and he knows what he's doing. But when I listen to him speak and I hear his strategies, I was like, you know, I kind of, I know I'm not going to get yield from bitcoin without putting my bitcoin at risk per se. So in order for me to express my view in the market, I have mstr, I have Misty. Like, I, I, I feel bad that I have to feel ashamed that I have these. I didn't get into them until this year. And Misty's a relatively new product, but it is a way that I feel like I'm yielding income from an asset that I buy into. And there's a whole lot we can like that. Not that's not necessarily your strategy or your message, but you did say something about the treasury companies and then people like bailing out and eating the humble pie. I'm sitting on my positions. I'm not sweating those positions because I know why I got into them. And if my base case holds, which is that MSTR performs better when bitcoin zone in a bull, and bitcoin is currently not in a bull, it's in a sideways consolidation, then that asset's going to underperform. And I'm aware of that. So I'm not crying about it. I'm aware of the risks that I'm taking with that particular asset. [00:42:16] Speaker A: So the people that you'll hear saying never sell your bitcoin are people that got on early and have a large quantity of bitcoin. Okay. And they get good terms when they go to borrow against their bitcoin. Right. So I'll just openly tell you the figures. For me, these dental implants, it was $12,000 and I put eight on credit, but I didn't have $12,000 available at low interest. I only had eight. So I sold $4,000 worth of Bitcoin right now. I'm a stay at home dad with Sam. Sam doesn't pay me too well. It's rewarding in other ways, but he doesn't pay me. But at some stage through 2026, I'll be out there working again. I have good qualifications, I have good experience, assume I'll be earning decent money. I'll be, I'll be able to replace that with one paycheck. So what's the problem? So these messages that are very. I push back against these messages sometimes because it defeats the purpose of bitcoin being permissionless and it defeats the point of bitcoin being decentralized that you have these elevated figures who sort of preach from a pulpit high above at the plebs down below about what you should and shouldn't do. And I would say to all bitcoiners, you do what's right for you don't. The biggest mistake that you can make, like that guy that I just told you about, I don't want to name him, but he, he runs spaces, he has a large following. You know, a lot of people look to him as a bitcoin influencer. And he went off out and put a considerable amount of his bitcoin into zcash and then came back and just sort of says, well, you know, that was a mistake. And then just carried on lecturing to other people what they should do about their bitcoin. So look, I think we're reaching a point where there are more and more new people coming in. A lot of those people coming in are going to come through IBIT. They're going to come through the other ETFs, I think through next year. They're going to come through more products than IBIT and an etf. They're going to come through eventually. There's going to be mortgages, there's going to be car leases, there's going to be credit cards, there's going to be life assurance, there's going to be all types of Wall street products built around bitcoin as the underlying asset. And I don't think I have the right and I don't think anyone has to sort of say to those people, you should do this and you should do that and you're not really, you don't really understand bitcoin if you're going down that route. Look, everybody's situation is different. Everybody's situation is different. I signed a lease on a car mark early 2022 on the chip bridge meant that there were no cars. And I just happened to find a car in a lot, but it was $72,000. And the job that I was in at the time was a very high paying job. And before that first year of a four year lease was up, I had been let go from that job. So my circumstances changed dramatically. And then Sam came along. Look, what I'm trying to say is everyone's situation is different. And especially for the new people coming in, the advice should be look, in an ideal world, don't sell your bitcoin. But by the same token, if the choice is getting out of control with your credit cards or not making a mortgage payment, what's it going to be? Now I know there's some people who say don't pay your taxes and don't do this and don't do that and reject against the system. That's all well and good, but you have to pay your bills. And sometimes people have extenuating circumstances or their situation changes. So I don't think there's blanket advice that should be administered to all people as if it's in binary form that you, it's either don't sell your bitcoin or take it into self custody or you know, you're not really welcome around here. Everyone's situation is different. The last thing I'll say about that is what's really interesting now as well is, and I don't hear people talking about this, I think there's a little bit of a fracture right now in that the cypherpunk ideology I think is having less relevance. So there are some cypherpunks who would view bitcoin as being a way to circumvent government and banks and stick it to the man that will go off and we'll start our own sort of economy, I think that that was a very noble pursuit after 2008. Right. But I think that element within bitcoin is losing its relevancy. And you'll hear those people saying that I bet us paper money and you know it's not a good idea. But my answer to that is well, if people are going, if these institutions are going to start dealing in paper bitcoin, who gets wrecked? Well, the bank gets wrecked or the people that were on the other end of that deal, the clients. Bitcoin doesn't get wrecked, Bitcoin will remain the same. Right. So the point I'm making is I think Wall Street's arrival is very, very welcome and that's controversial. But if you got into Bitcoin in 2010 and you're of a cypherpunk or a libertarian mentality, then you're standing like this to Wall street and you're saying they're the enemy. But if you got in 2023, and like me, you're someone who has spent 25 years studying emerging technologies and realizing how an emerging technology gets to the mainstream, well, then I'm saying come right ahead. Like, come right, you're welcome. Because bitcoin, I think, had stagnated for the past couple of years. I think we weren't reaching new people. I think there was a certain, there was a case to be made, even the etf. I think the ETF simply provided a way for existing bitcoiners to get the trapped money, if you get what I'm saying. I don't think we're attracting many new people, and I think Wall Street's going to be able to do that. So look, these dogmatic stances about what bitcoin is, how to store it, what to do with it, we need to be a little bit more pragmatic. And I think for the asset to mature, you need Wall Street. They've got advertising departments and budgets and marketing departments and budgets, and they've already got the captive audience, all their clients, where they can bring in people en masse. We can't do that. And if you need a piece of evidence as to why we can't do that, just go on X at the minute and you see how many bitcoiners are. They have each other by the throat and they're, they're, they're grumpy and they're blocking each other and they're talking about quantum and all type. That's not attracting new people. That's not attract. So how is number going to go up if you're not attracting new people and the people who are already in are maxi. Do you get what I'm saying? [00:49:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I very much get what you're saying. [00:49:35] Speaker A: So, yeah, sorry, that was a bit of a rant. But I guess the overall point that I'm trying to make, Mark, is there is no right and wrong. And with a decentralized asset, if you're just through the door, you have as much right to determine how you approach this thing. As someone who has been here since 2010 and owns a bunch of it, you're an equal here. That's what decentralization is. [00:50:01] Speaker B: Well, that's a nice way to say it. I do see eyes. I do see eyes rolling from the old school, the. Oh, geez, their heads are spinning. [00:50:09] Speaker A: Yeah, they don't like me for saying that. [00:50:10] Speaker B: But not even just you, but the fact that you and I are having a conversation. We're not OGs. We're like two newer people to the space having conversation. It's interesting too now because I think people like us, we might have seen. I know four years ago when I was looking into it, I was more attracted to the big players who are talking about, I can't even say big players, but younger people that had a certain energy about them that would talk about the space that they were the only ones really talking about it. So you would, I would just educate myself through younger people but their energy is a little bit different and they are communicating a little different versus like most of my friends are like me. I'm sure your friends are like you. We're in similar financial situations. We're not running hundred million dollar deals on the weekend and we're not telling you how to get your Ferrari and your yacht and you know, get that kind of wealth. We're talking about a practical way of, practicality of this asset. And like you said, the decentralized component is fascinating and there's nothing really like it. And part of that decentralization is that it is for every, like it's decentralized. You can get on, you can use the protocol with a small amount of satoshis, like a small amount, a fraction of a bitcoin. So even though the, the whole coin number might be intimidating and it's only going to get more into it should ideally only get more intimidating because that's the point. You're trying to save money that is going to hold value over time. So that number should go up. That's the, that's part of it. And but in the meantime you, whatever that number is, you can start putting into it. And I, I'm with, I'm with you in the sense that I am not preaching a maximalist self custody vantage point. I appreciate it intellectually and I hear people like Simon and Simon is just a very fascinating gentleman in general. Just the amount of history that he has and he's definitely an og and, and he's really been at the front lines of this emergent technology and he really understands it in a uniquely macrospective macro vantage point. That being said, I don't see myself as like a self sovereign running my own bank. I get that aspect of it. And, and British, I heard British say this and it's kind of where my, my headspace is at right now. Where whatever the likelihood of bitcoin, whatever the likelihood of you think the system is going to completely crumble and be shattered. Is the percentage that you maybe want to allocate to your self custody position? Meaning if you think 100% Wall street is going down and bitcoin is going to completely change the whole landscape, then, then put 100% in self custody and express your viewpoint. If you take a broader view and see these assets coexisting together and maybe peacefully. Even though I get when Dark says it's antithetical, they're just antithetical from one another, I also have Joe's voice in my head which is like these things are, can go and grow in perpetuity together and they can complement each other with bitcoin being the base layer and then these other layers on top of it. With regards to stablecoins, Yeah. [00:53:37] Speaker A: I feel like that stance is predicated on the assumption that, that an absolute collapse is coming. And I just feel like if an absolute collapse happens, Bitcoin is the least of our worries. [00:53:50] Speaker B: Right. [00:53:51] Speaker A: Or our worries. [00:53:52] Speaker B: It's an end of the world scenario. [00:53:54] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, especially for us as Americans living in the US if the dollar were to completely collapse and the federal government sort of had to roll over and there was a revolution and there was a new farm of governance, well then we have other things to worry about. We have people from around the world that are going to come looking for their money back. Right. And they're going to exert force. And if there's missiles flying over our head from other countries who are pissed with us because we screwed things up and their dollar that they're holding is now worthless, they're not stop pushing that button or dropping that bomb or firing that missile because we hold up this little hard wallet that says, oh, I'm immune, I'm immune. I wasn't part of that system. You know, it's ridiculous. Like if I go to the, if I go to the supermarket, it doesn't matter if I've got bitcoin, gold dollars, euro, it doesn't matter what I have. If there's a collapse, you can't buy bacon, you can't buy milk. You know, it doesn't matter what currency you have. So I do have bitcoin self custody and I absolutely advocate that people should. But I'm just making the point that there are all types of ideologies within Bitcoin. I'm working on the assumption that this fiat system is going to be around for a long time. They're masterful at finding ways to make this work. And so my Overriding ambition is for little Sam. I want to outpace inflation. I want to build a little bit of wealth for both my retirement and his future. And that plan may or may not include the possibility that the dollar hyperinflates away and we have a revolution and we use barter. And I just think we have bigger fish to fry if that ever happens, especially as Americans. If we were living in, I don't know, Mauritius or some idyllic island in the middle of the ocean, yeah, we could say bitcoin in self custody. But when you're living in the nation where the dollar originated and if the dollar were to collapse, you know, we've got other problems. [00:56:04] Speaker B: Right, right. I agree with that. You know what, Sam? I normally do this at the beginning, but I'm going to do it with you now. Have you ever groked yourself? [00:56:14] Speaker A: Have I ever groked myself? Yes. I think I might have clotted myself. [00:56:19] Speaker B: Okay. I don't. There you go. What's clotting yourself using cloud as opposed to Grok? Yeah, well, I. I'm saying it, and you're definitely old enough for this and so am I. Where we used to. It used to say google yourself, like you would Google yourself. So now if you go over on X on the Grok icon on the top, you can click on that icon and it'll give you a summary of. Of the person. So I'm going to read you what Grok says about you right now. [00:56:51] Speaker A: Wow. [00:56:52] Speaker B: Okay. You ready? [00:56:54] Speaker A: I'm ready. [00:56:55] Speaker B: I normally do this as an icebreaker, but you and I, we already had broken ice, so we'll just do it for fun. All right, so I'm pulling up Sam and Sam at the Sam podcast on X. Before I read this, I interview people from X and I like it because it's a living space. So you and I are having a conversation, but if someone's watching this, they could go on to X and they'll probably find one of us on there and they're welcome to chat us up wherever you see us online. Right, so here we go. Hesam Podcast hosts a bitcoin only podcast featuring conversations between a father and his infant son who sparked the father's immersion in cryptocurrency through everyday orange pilling moments. Drawing from a background in SaaS, customer success, UX design masters, and a Wharton Metaverse diploma. I'm going to have to ask you about that because that's interesting. The account blends tech adoption insights with staunch bitcoin maximalism. It frequently spotlights community figures like Michael saylor while countering market fud with humorous, resilient takes on dips and as buying opportunities. [00:58:12] Speaker A: Wow. [00:58:13] Speaker B: Pretty good, right? You feel like, yeah, every time I do this, people tend to be like, yeah, I. That's, you know, it's just pulling up. It's taking what you're putting out there content wise and just giving it back. In a summary for someone who's not familiar with you that they could easily kind of like start to get a feel of what your vibe is. It also pulls a quote or a tweet from you and it says, people will harm Bitcoin much more than Quantum ever could. You wrote that, right? That's. That's one of your tweets. [00:58:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Today. Last. Last night. [00:58:45] Speaker B: There you go. Yeah. So it's pretty current. It'll pull something. Pretty current. [00:58:50] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. So while you were reading that, I was thinking to myself, wow, I couldn't have written that any better. When you sit down to do your resume, we bring all sorts of garbage from our perception of ourselves to our resume. Right. Whereas if you just had an AI do it for you, it would probably do a much better job. Like sometimes I think when I try to do a resume, I labor too much on the points that I think that I want to push. But those points may not be serving my best interests. That's just my perception of what I've done. Whereas you may look at my resume and a little bullet point way down in the bottom, you might say, wow, that's what we're looking for. We can sometimes be our own worst enemies where either through embarrassment or, you know, inferiority complex that we sort of talk ourselves down Sometimes AI doesn't see that. AI just sees reality. So, yeah, that little spiel just really. I'm quite happy with it. I couldn't have gotten that any better. [00:59:50] Speaker B: Every time I. I like doing this with people. That's how it should be. You should be nodding your head and saying, yeah, that's what I'm about. If you're not, that just means something. You're messaging out there is not in line with what you're. Actually, there's a mismatch there. If that's. It doesn't feel like it resonates. So what's that? [01:00:09] Speaker A: Yeah, and the interesting thing now is Grokopedia. [01:00:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:14] Speaker A: So I had a talk earlier this year with Gary Cardone. Super interesting guy to talk with. One on one. Sometimes I think on spaces that doesn't come across but one on one. And we were talking about education. I asked him hey, should I send Sam to college? And he was kind of off the opinion. Nah, send him to someone like me to work for free and he can learn from someone who has a rags to richest story. Like entrepreneurship might be more important than an Ivy League qualification, but one of the things that Gary said during our talk was what's more important, starting now and into the future is your resume is online. You know you're out there. What you do online is more important than any resume you could write. Like I'm old enough that you needed to have a handwritten reference from a former employer or a local politician even was seen as being credible or the local parish priest or whatever. But. But now that's moved. There's nothing you can put in a resum that'll tell a better story about who you are than what's already online. Right. So we both need to be to be careful about that. But we also should realize the opportunity that that creates because we can engineer opportunities for ourselves. Right. That's what I think is exciting about AI. AI is going to give us a clean slate. [01:01:29] Speaker B: I did the Grok with Trey Sellers. It was abusing in that regard too. What we were both thinking is because it pulled up such recent content that we put out, it is a real time feedback mechanism of how you are presenting yourself to the online community. Specifically X. But. But that is a representation of who you are. Like a resume to your point, A and a piece of paper is only so dynamic. But when you get it in a concise paragraph and you're seeing that kind of content being put out there, it's like there's a congruency. What I wanted to say was if you getting feedback and it's not resonating with you, it is an opportunity. You're like, well, that's not really the message I'm trying to get across. So how do I reframe my communicating? And like the first time I gracked myself and it was very unflattering for me, which made me. Yeah, because it just like I had this idea in my head, like, just go on and troll people in like a weird. Like I'm like, oh, this is just for, you know, like this is what Trump did. He went on and he just pissed everybody off. And I'm not a confrontational person, so I wasn't trying to be that way. And in my mind I think I'm being funny. But then when it said you got to back off, it was like, I kind of got feedback. Like you got to tone it down. A little bit the first time that I did this exercise. So, like, I hadn't even thought about that until we just started talking about it. [01:02:53] Speaker A: Now the unfortunate thing is for many people and probably the younger generations, trolling is a pretty successful way to get traction. And you mentioned Trump. Like, I think Trump was probably already over the line at that stage. But I think one of the best publicity stunts, or two of them actually that I've ever seen was when Trump went and worked the McDonald's and when he rolled up in the garbage truck the day after Joe Biden had said all Trumpers are a bunch of garbage. And Trump rolls up the next day. I think that was in Michigan, was it? He rolls up the next day in the garbage truck and he says, hey, how do you like my truck? We're all garbage. Yep. So that was trolling. And unfortunately trolling does resonate and does get traction and I think that's why people do it. Now. I have a very thin skin when it comes to trolling. Sometimes I can't see that I'm being trolled and I'll respond. So there's that aspect of it. I was on a space recently and there was a guy who I really respect and he was getting into a debate about the four year cycle and what drives price, Bitcoin price. And the other guy was a miner. And the other guy was saying, miners control the price and the four year cycle controls the price. And they were going back and forward and back and forward and back and forward. And it got heated. So my guy eventually said, you're a douchebag. And every time the other guy would go to speak, he would say, douchebag, douchebag, dude. And eventually he left the space. So I sent him a DM and I said, hey, you were 100% right. That guy was, was way off the mark. And he says, yeah, I may have been right, but I'm very, very disappointed in myself that I sort of stooped to his. So, yeah, your online Persona. Yeah, we have to be careful. There's a fine line between being passionate about something and, well, in the US at least we have freedom of speech. Western Europe, you can get yourself into a situation where you could go to jail for something you've said online. So, yeah, it's very interesting. And I guess with the growth of AI, this is going to become more and more and more important. There may be a synopsis of who we are generated by AI that we sort of start to lose control over having an influence on. If you get what I'm saying I'm 53 years old. I thought I was done with seeing new things. And I just think bitcoin and AI in tandem is just. It has totally reinvigorated me. I feel like I'm 23, not 53. I'm so excited for the next 20, 30 years, for what I'm going to be able to live to see come to pass. And it's just. It's off the charts exciting. [01:05:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm with you on that. Sam, would you. I feel like you already dispense some wisdom there, but do you have any final words for our audience? What's a message you want people to walk away with? [01:05:56] Speaker A: Well, relevant to bitcoin? Don't be put off by the price of bitcoin or the fact that you go on YouTube or X and you see people who are around with a big bag of bitcoin and they've been here since 2010. It's all relative. What's relative? The only person you're competing against is yourself. There was an advertisement a couple of years ago for NerdWallet, and there was a black guy at the end of the advertisement and he's saying, don't make your future you, hate you. So they were showing people in their working careers and then fast forwarding to when they were older and they were highlighting the mistakes they made with their savings and their financial literacy. So the catch line was, don't make your future you, hate you. I would say to anybody listening to this who's not already allocated to bitcoin. Just keep that in mind. And you don't have to. We were talking about getting to one bitcoin you don't have. There's no rule says you have to get to one bitcoin, but get off zero and try to get to as much as you can, because it's relative to yourself. It's relative to your own situation. And finally, the last piece of advice. Advice would be have a think about what decentralization really means. And that means that if you do come in, what's your 0.2 Bitcoin or 0.25? You have every bit as much right to be around the community as the guy who has 100 bitcoin or a thousand bitcoin, because by nature of decentralization, that guy doesn't have any more control over the asset or over the narrative than you do. So, yeah, get off zero and don't feel intimidated. Be part of the space. Go to meetups, try to go to a conference. Try to befriend people who dispatch good advice. And. And as you said at the start of the show, I haven't read it yet, but I will read it. Bitcoin is for everyone. I think Natalie got the name of that book absolutely spot on. So, yeah, that's my advice for what it's worth. [01:07:51] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that sound. It's a couple sats there, at least. [01:07:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:56] Speaker B: I really appreciate you coming on Sam. And for people who are watching, Sam is doing a space now. [01:08:02] Speaker A: You're. [01:08:02] Speaker B: You're kind of getting into your own regular space. You're carving out your own little time and niche. And I don't know how consistently or how much you. You're going to do this in the future, but if someone's watching this, like, check out Sam's space, you're. [01:08:15] Speaker A: Yeah. So I wanted to kind of give a platform and give a stage to people, the types of people who. I was just giving advice to, people maybe who feel too intimidated to step up or put up their hand in the bigger spaces. So I wanted to kind of try and reach new plebs. But the idea of doing it on a Saturday as well was kind of like the way that the old newspapers used to run during the week. You get the news as it's happening and you don't have a lot of time, so it's kind of headline scanning. But then on the weekend, your newspaper has four booklets in it and there's a lot of editorial and you can put your feet up and sort of take more time to dive in. So the intention of the Saturday afternoon space is to sort of review the week. That was because I think X is very reactionary at the time. Right. If there's a news item, people make a decision about what this means right away. But over the course of four days or a week, when you get to the weekend and put your feet up, you can kind of look back and see with a different perspective what that really meant. So that's the idea of the Saturday afternoon space. But hosting is incredibly difficult, both because of the glitches on X. And you're the curator. Right. And you have to sort of decide what's best for everyone that's listening versus shutting someone down if they're being rude or if they're off topic or, you know, it's a difficult thing to host a space. But yeah, I'm going to try and keep going. On the set of. [01:09:36] Speaker B: You did a. I listened in on the last space and you had great speakers come up. [01:09:40] Speaker A: The. [01:09:40] Speaker B: The guys that come up on the bigger spaces, like Fred came up to your space Fre Fred Krueger and Thomas was on your space. And I'm trying to think of who else showed up, but you had. And it was great in the. In the other voices that I was less familiar with, I was still gaining insight into the psychology and what people are thinking about when they're looking at the space. And it's not easy. And you did a great job. It was cool. I felt like it was just like any other space, but it. The way that you presented it in terms of people who are intimidated maybe by the larger spaces. [01:10:13] Speaker A: Yeah. And there were people who spoke on that space. And I can tell you they don't have anywhere near one bitcoin, but they're trying their damnedest to get there. And these people sometimes carry great insight. So, yeah, that's who I sort of wanted to appeal to. Because you need like, whether it's in business or when you're in school or raising a kid or no matter what it is, communication is important. But you can't always have top down communication. Sometimes that communication has to be more on like a star shape where it's coming from different perspectives and we need to hear. That's one of the problems with the United States. And I guess the word today is that we get into these echo chambers. We're not willing to listen to someone maybe who has a different perspective. So I think it's important that new people are heard, especially new people who get it and they bring fresh eyes and fresh ears and fresh perspective. I benefit from that. That's the. That's the idea for the Saturday space. [01:11:10] Speaker B: Yeah. That's great. I really appreciate you coming on and I'll see you in a spaces. That's why this is just kind of like you said, this is. When I do these podcasts, it's an opportunity for me to take you guys out of the frantic pace of the regular bill you and get to go with a little bit of a deeper dive in the bitcoiners. And everybody has a little bit of a different strategy and a little bit of a different way of approaching it. And I like that people can look and see whose resonates with them and whose style matches more their situation. And it's a better way to get introduced to the space. [01:11:49] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. [01:11:52] Speaker B: Yeah. All right, I'm going to say goodbye to our audience and then you and I will chat for just a minute or two just to see how it went and please come back again and we'll see you. I Hope to have more bitcoiners on and do more deep dives with people in the bitcoin spaces. Thank you for watching this episode of the Money Adjustment. If you want more like comment and subscribe, you can follow me on X Mark Kramer until the next episode. Stay healthy and wealthy. Should we leave our audience with that? Yeah. So how'd you feel coming on? Was it okay? [01:12:35] Speaker A: Yeah. I loved. I love talking bitcoin, and I love these deeper dives. I always learned the, like, the first person who asked me to come on their podcast or their stream, I was like, me, what do you want with me? But I always learned something. And so when I do my podcasts, I try to do it in a way that it's. It's a conversation, as opposed to, you know, me being like a news reporter who's asking questions. And, yeah, I always get something out of it. And I think, as I mentioned earlier, Robin Sayers podcast, I watch out of that because his podcasts are relaxed deep dives. People can kind of go in the direction they want to go, and I think that's when you get the best insights from people as opposed to the very concrete, regimented, sort of like I had Jeff Booth recently, and it was very hard to get him to say something different than he hasn't. Than I said a hundred times before. And if I. If I ever. I've always said this. If I ever got to talk to Saylor, I would say to him, listen, forget about bitcoin, forget about strategy. Just take your shoes off, relax, have a cup of tea or whatever, and let's talk about physics or, you know, you know, because he's. He's asked the same questions ten times a day every day. Whereas I think. [01:13:59] Speaker B: No good. [01:13:59] Speaker A: Yeah. I think just when you get into a deeper dive, it's more natural. [01:14:03] Speaker B: I was thinking of the meme of sailor, where he's always like. Like you, like you said, he's always getting asked the same questions and he has to take a deep breath, and it's like, here we go again. Here, let me explain to see you. Thanks again for coming on, Sam. I hope you enjoy the rest of your day. I hope you enjoy your time with Sam and the little Sam and I. I'm glad I got a chance to see the little guy. He's really cute. You got a beautiful family man. [01:14:32] Speaker A: Yeah, well, dad's dads get it. We get what this is about, right? And it was great meeting you and. And talking with you, and no doubt we'll be getting to know each other better over time, right? [01:14:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You'll see me. I, I'm. I'm more in the commenting reply section than I am speaking on the spaces. But at least now when you see me replying, hopefully it'll give you a frame of reference of where I'm coming from. [01:14:56] Speaker A: Absolutely. [01:14:57] Speaker B: Yeah. All right, Mark, Take care, Sam. Bye. [01:14:59] Speaker A: Thank you so much. [01:15:01] Speaker B: Should we leave our audience with that? Yeah. Become the money. Become the money.