2026: Bitcoin, MSTR, IBIT, & MSTY with BritishHODL

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yield harvesting is basically like a business opportunity. It's URI trading and harvesting the volatility of the underlying asset, whether it's Bitcoin, mstr, gold, whatever you want it to be. Whereas fixed income is, you are, you are buying a certain class of shares and the seller of those shares is guaranteeing you a particular dividend, and that's it. Right. Whereas with msty, there's no real cap on how much money you could make. Because if they're doing the job right, then as MSTR is going up, they're going to harvest some of that yield to the upside. And as MSTR is going down, they're obviously, you know, the share price is going to come down with the stock, but they're going to harvest the yield, which is how they've been paying the dividends. So that's the, that's the core difference. And at some point, depending on your stage of life, depending on all kinds of different things, fixed income might make more sense than yield harvesting. And at some points, like in my reality, yield harvesting makes more sense than fixed income. But for my parents, for example, STRC makes more sense. [00:01:02] Speaker B: Hello, welcome to the Money Adjustment. I'm your host, Dr. Mark Kramer, DC. I am a chiropractor who loves investing and trading. Are you interested in what's moving markets and your money? Great. Let's get started. [00:01:19] Speaker A: You know, I used to, I used to end with this idea that you got to get to one Bitcoin and I'm at the point now where that's still relevant, but it feels like less and less people are hearing it. It feels like retail is moving to degen speculation. And, you know, I think that anyone who is wealthy enough will have heard what I, what I said in this podcast and will take that action. I have complete faith in that. But the reality is, like, it is almost too late. This is a blessing that we had the October market. Something blew up in the, in the market and we had a drawdown for, for a few weeks. But the reality is this is now too late for a lot of people, and I'm talking about the overwhelming majority of people. It is now a savings technology and people are not going to like that because they want to speculate. [00:02:08] Speaker B: So in answer to your question, who is my main audience? I started this, I started this as a hobby. My oldest was in her senior year in high school and she was doing a broadcasting class. And I remember doing a broadcasting class when I was in high school and I was like, oh, that was kind of fun. Welcome to Mark on the Mic or the Mark show, otherwise known. And I'm your host, Mark Kramer. And today I'm here with the great animator who we all know and love for his many characters that he's brought to the screen. For example, our favorite mouse, Mickey Mouse. And today's guest is Walt Disney. Hi, Walt Disney. Hello, Mark. How are you? Who inspired you? And so I tried for about six months to get the whole podcast up and running. And, you know, you do. You do YouTube, which is even more involved than. Than a podcast format because there's a little bit more staging, I think. I don't know. But I enlisted my uncle, who was an actor, and he had done a podcast before for Jon Lovitz. You remember Jon Lovitz by any chance? Snl, Former SNL character. Anyways, so I tried to do these with my uncle just for fun, but he's not a stock guy. He's like. He. This is like, I'm in a different universe when I talk about any of this stuff. You get sound. Did you hear recording in progress? I did, yeah. Okay, so now this will be the test. We could just chat for, like, two, three minutes or a minute and then see how it goes. And to shorten the story for you and to get to the point, I hired a coach, and they were prying me for what I'm interested in talking about. And I'm like, I really like the stock market. I like trading. I'm a retail trader. He's the one who got me into the stock market the way I am now. Like, got me interested the way I am now in, like, 2010. He was talking about. Or we were talking about Facebook, and I was like, oh, this company. Facebook's gonna go public. [00:04:21] Speaker A: And. [00:04:22] Speaker B: And I think it's gonna do well because I find I'm addicted to it. I'm, like, on Facebook all the time. And he's like, oh, really? Because he wasn't on Facebook at all. He's like, that's how I feel about the stock market. And then I was thinking to myself, oh, I wish I felt that way about the stock market and not Facebook, because face being on Facebook's really not doing that for me. Like, but Fast forward, like, 10 years later, and I. I'm always giving my friend advice about the mark. Like, he's. At one point during the pandemic, my friend's like, I talk to all our buddies. We want to pool our money together and give it to you, and then just have you manage, like, a percentage of the portfolio or something. And I was like, I don't want. So to answer your question, I'm geared towards a retail audience and I'm still finding my niche within the bitcoin community because my deep dive down the bitcoin rabbit hole started from listening to your spaces. [00:05:23] Speaker A: Okay. [00:05:24] Speaker B: Just the bitcoin spaces. And then from that I interviewed Dark. Dark was one of the first people I interviewed. Good day, Dr. Mark. [00:05:32] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me. Look forward to the conversation. So just to give you a little background on myself, I'm a longtime tradfi. [00:05:42] Speaker B: Tradfi guy and Dark just, just. It was one of those like, oh my gosh. I had been in Bitcoin since 2020 and I had some appreciation of it from the number go up standpoint and just like a, like a tech play. [00:05:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:58] Speaker B: But then this year, doing the bitcoin, like listening to the bitcoin spaces and having guys like you on, I'm like, oh my God. Like I, I haven't even scratched the surface of everything that's around here. So does that help? Yeah, very long winded and yeah, so, yeah, so so. And so from my, my framework and the reason I'm thrilled to have you on is, is because I, I've been interviewing people that, that tend to be more of the very strongly self custody revolutionary standpoint, which I fully appreciate. And I, and I see tremendous value in that. But I, but I didn't come from that world. And someone I'm starting to appreciate in the spaces is Sam is sa. Do you know I'm talking about like and Sam. [00:06:47] Speaker A: So I agree with British. [00:06:50] Speaker B: When I came into the scene first. [00:06:51] Speaker A: And I first heard British, I was. [00:06:53] Speaker B: Like, man, who, who the heck's this? [00:06:55] Speaker A: This guy? [00:06:55] Speaker B: I didn't like his brash, abrupt sort of nature. [00:06:59] Speaker A: But I've since come to. [00:07:00] Speaker B: You know, I really like British and I like the message he carries. [00:07:04] Speaker A: He. [00:07:04] Speaker B: I can resonate more with him because he didn't. He recently got more recently got into bitcoin and appreciates the value add of bitcoin, but he doesn't have like the same. I get it. When you're in a space that has had the challenges that bitcoin has had since 2009 and the ride just for me, doing one epoch, one cycle. If you buy into the cycle theory, me doing 2020-20 to. To current to 2025 was a roller coaster ride and I already kind of had some idea of what I was getting into. And like, looking back on it, I'm not thrilled with the way that I did Certain things. So like with regards to the four year cycle, just buying into that and then selling out of my bitcoin, thinking that during the FTX collapse that I was going to get back in at like 12k when it was trading at 15k. And I thought I was really smart because I got out at like 36 and I was happy that I didn't lose any money. And then I was waiting for 12 and then it just like takes off and it's a hundred and, and you know, 126. And I'm like, this is ridiculous. And I am like the bitcoin advocate in my community. So it's not even like I didn't know better. So I like stopped playing the games with it. And this time, and this is kind of a nice lead in for why I have you on and I've been listening to your content, is because you say I like the way you're more entertaining the way you say it. But it's like just buy bitcoin, shut the F up and get fabulously wealthy. And I think the profound component in the middle part of it that shut the F up. And I'm going to give you a second. I've been droning on. I'm like a terrible host. I'm like the host that comes on and just does all the talking. So one of the things I like to do with my guests is do you ever. Have you ever groked yourself? [00:09:05] Speaker A: Have I ever groked myself? No, I don't think so. [00:09:08] Speaker B: Okay, so this is usually fun when I do this. We'll see. So I'm going to grok you right now and then I'm going to see what grok what their interpretation of you is how they present you to someone who is maybe seeing you for the first time. [00:09:24] Speaker A: All right, here we go. [00:09:25] Speaker B: British Hodl, a former investor in gold equities and real estate, transitioned to aggressively accumulating Bitcoin since 2020 while mentoring others towards whole coin ownership. Now based in Dubai for its tax advantages and safety. It has you as they. I don't know if you care about the pronoun stuff. Uh, they champion institutional innovations like BlackRock, ETFs and MicroStrategy leverage to safeguard BTC without ever selling. Viewing Wall street adoption as Bitcoin's greatest accelerator, their commentaries skewer short term retail panics into gold and silver, positioning BTC as the ultimate risk asset. Poised for 2026 liquidity fueled surge to 340,000. I don't know where they pulled the number from it's because I've been saying so. So you're, you're. I. I don't want you to go in too depth because I am going to break these down. But, but you, you feel like 340. That's a number that you've been putting out there. [00:10:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I've been saying 340, plus or minus 15%. [00:10:35] Speaker B: Okay. [00:10:36] Speaker A: All right. [00:10:36] Speaker B: And I'll get to the dates and all of that. Two more things I want to read to you. So. But, but, but in terms of, in terms of Gro's. Interpret yourself close enough. [00:10:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:47] Speaker B: Okay. [00:10:48] Speaker A: Pretty good. [00:10:49] Speaker B: Okay. [00:10:50] Speaker A: All right. [00:10:51] Speaker B: So then they pull. Pull a tweet from you, and this is the one they pull. The fact that people have the balls to say ibit doesn't have your bitcoin in public and have an audience taking them seriously is wild to me. [00:11:06] Speaker A: Well, that's true. I wrote that. [00:11:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I remember reading that one. And, and I agree with you. I don't know who. If you were referring to anybody specific. And, and I, I. And I. I want to preface this again by saying I love everybody in the bitcoin today community. I think all bitcoiners, from all aspects of it to the, like, aggressive self custody to the, to the, the plebs coming in. And I consider myself, even though I've been watching Bitcoin since 2009 and didn't have any skin in the game until 2020, and I'm now finally in 2025, starting to self custody. I think of myself as like a pleb because I'm like, dude, if you, you know, you had a lot of opportunities to do this, right? [00:11:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess. Yeah. I'm talking to everyone. Like, I, I call everyone doom and gloom boomers that, you know, try and spread fear and, and that's how they sort of operate. And so, you know, that. That was really to everyone, not, not to anyone specific. [00:12:05] Speaker B: Right, right, right. And I didn't. I, I, Yeah, I appreciated when you said that. And I remember reading it. The last thing they have is I. It says you. You invited British Huddle to guest on the Money Adjustment podcast to dive into MSTR and MSTY Strategies, and you've chimed in on their takes about market li. Market liquidations with a cheeky gif urging degens to wise up. All right, so, like, that totally brings us to where we're at right now, right? [00:12:38] Speaker A: Amazing. I guess so, yeah. Not a bad job by Grok. [00:12:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I thought that was actually pretty good, that. I think that's another reason I like to start with it because it just breaks the ice a little bit. And. Yeah, so there was a lot that I just dumped on you. Would you like to jump on any of that? [00:12:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, I think June 15, 2023 was one of the most important dates in bitcoin history. And it's overlooked a lot of people that don't understand how adoption works, how capital saturation works. And that was the date that BlackRock filed the ETF application. And to me, my content really went jets on at that time because I just was in complete panic mode because I realized what was going to happen and that they were going to come and they are coming and they are taking bitcoin and literally my message has played out exactly, you know, with everything that I've been saying on BlackRock, on the institutions, on everything else. And it's a good thing, right? Because at the end of the day, bitcoin is for everyone. Right? That's what they tell us. So bitcoin is supposed to be for everyone and the institutions are here and they're going to play their games. And I just realized like the average person is not equipped to deal with a world where a shark like BlackRock or Fidelity or you know, Counterfeitzgerald or whatever is playing. So the safest thing to do in that scenario is literally to do nothing and just hold the position and let everyone else get washed out. So that, that's. Yeah, I mean, June 15, 2023 is a very important date and it won't be appreciated for a while. [00:14:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's very interesting when I hear you say that. I've been listening to a lot of Simon stuff lately, so this will be. I could process some of this with you. So Simon, when I listen to Simon, I feel like the elite are conspiring against me. I have. I am like a. A serf in a. In the United States. And I don't know what to do other than he does have a. He does have a message. And the message is to self custody your bitcoin become sovereign. And that's the really the only thing you can do. So I think my head went to Simon because you talk about BlackRock, you talk about Larry Fink, you talk about like these big players. And before being drawn into the bitcoin spaces, I was at CNBC like three, four hours a day. I'm just watching CNBC morning, noon, night, and, and, and I loved it. I haven't watched as much this year because I took this deep dive into bitcoin spaces. But I think I thought of CNBC because when I listen to CNBC and then I hear Larry Fink and I hear, I'm like, I'm excited like you are. I, I have a sense of enthusiasm and I feel good, like, oh, the institutions are going to bring this thing forward. They have the resources, they have the money be the capital to really give some rocket fuel to the bitcoin protocol. And so that's more how I feel about it. But when I listen to the bitcoin spaces, I get again, I appreciate the urge for the self custody, like to really get a message across to do the self custody because that's where BlackRock isn't just bringing money because they think they can do a money grab. They understand these are smart people. They understand there's the, there's a protocol beneath it, a community, a whole large whatever information, whoever's feeding them, their knowledge that they were willing to bring a tidal wave of capital to get behind this. And even with the etf. It's interesting because I was just thinking about this today, kind of in preparation for this interview, how so many other people competed for the Bitcoin etf like a top of the. My name is Cathie woods and I don't think she, she didn't get anything that I'm aware of. BlackRock became almost the de facto ETF. [00:16:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, they were the first. And that's why like as soon As I think BlackRock has filed, don't quote me on the numbers because it's a long time since I looked, but it's something like 600. Let's just round it to 600 ETF applications in its history and they've had 599 of them approved. And the one that got disapproved, the whole industry got disapproved. So to me, as soon as I saw that application go through I was like, okay, it's done, it's done, it's a done deal now. They're going to come in, they're going to, they're going to raise the standards on everybody, they're going to raise the standards on custody, they're going to raise the standards on how an ETF should be structured. And then we saw a lot of structuring going back and forth with the SEC and you know, the different providers coming in and readjusting their applications based on what BlackRock was doing. So yeah, it's actually two people. You know, BlackRock. Larry Fink gets all the credit because he's the superstar of blackrock. But Robert Michnick actually is the driver of, of, of the IBIT ETF and he really took to, took this to task and got it working. And he deserves all the credit because it is at this point the highest revenue generating single product at BlackRock. And it's been shy of two years. Right. [00:18:01] Speaker B: That's impressive. Yeah, I think I'm. I'm just thinking back to you asked earlier. Earlier, like, who's my audience? I'm not in the financial industry. I'm a chiropractor that just likes investing in trading. So I get this information because I like to geek out about it and consume it. But then I have to go into my community and then educate them. I'm not an evangelist in the sense of I'm not just talking to anybody about bitcoin. People come to me because they see the content that I'm putting out there. And before that content got created, my friends were coming to me with regards to bitcoin and investing in bitcoin. So people come to me as like a trusted source when it comes to investing in general. I do geek out about it. So they come to me for the investment stuff. But, but with the bitcoin stuff is where I really feel like I'm the most passionate about it. Partially because of the revolutionary aspect of it and the depth that you can go with the bitcoin narrative. But even within the bitcoin community, I always try to approach this carefully because I don't want to be disrespectful to anybody. I am coming from a very outside perspective. So I sometimes don't even like to come and talk. Not that I don't like to talk. I'm the annoying troll that's like, you know, commenting and just doing all the Twitter troll stuff. And not I. Hopefully not in a bad way, but I'm just like to comment that way. But I'm not getting on the spaces and people aren't hearing my voice on the spaces. And I was thinking part that's partially because of the time of day. It is. But also partially because I don't feel that's why I said I'm starting to go. I'm starting to feel most drawn to Sam because Sam is a little bit more representative of doing spaces. He's a real person. Exactly. Thank you. That was a very succinct way to. Yeah. [00:19:58] Speaker A: Say that. Yeah, he's a real person. You know, like that. The hardest part for me was when we crossed 100,000 the first time because it was like three years at that Point of full on aggression, putting out content almost to a daily, to a daily clip. And you know, obviously it's social media, so dealing with the trolls, dealing with everything. And then at 100,000, I remember I was living in a different city at the time and I just went onto the balcony, lit up a cigar and looked over and I was living in a beautiful place where I could just see the whole city, down the city. And I was just like, this is really cool, the fact that bitcoin's at a hundred thousand, but everyone that I'm looking at right now is now fucked, you know. And that was the bittersweet, the bittersweet kind of moment for me when we crossed 100,000 the first time. And the reason for that is, is that, you know, people like to, in the bitcoin space, everyone likes to jerk each other off by saying, oh, you know, you gotta just dca and you gotta just get a little bit of bitcoin and this, that and the other. It's not true. You have. It is a monetary network. It is a monetary network represented by proof of work. And therefore proof of ownership is very important. And when something is scarce, how much you own of it, it is extremely important. Which is why I, you know, during my days of, of banging out the content in that first three years was like, I don't care whether you understand it or not. Get to one bitcoin, right? Get to one bitcoin and then figure it out. Let's not waste time trying to, you know, trade it or trying to understand it before you get the ownership. Because at some point you're not going to be able to get the ownership. And as the price keeps going up, you just price out people, right? It's a hundred thousand dollars a coin, right? And it's like that's 0.4% ish of the world that can now afford one coin, right? Started making content at like 20,000 ish. So that was extremely important to me. And that's why like, you know, I battle with the revolutionaries. Because yes, bitcoin is, is a savings technology, right? So to the majority, the average person, the main issue that you've had is that you go and spend all day earning money. You're a chiropractor, there's people that are police officers, lawyers, teachers, whatever, spend all day slaving to earn that money. And now you have to become a professional investment advisor and a manager in order just to keep it right, because it's being debased from underneath you. And that's the problem that bitcoin really solves. So it is an amazing savings technology because it protects your value that you've earned. But in terms of an opportunity to actually grow your wealth in an accelerated fashion, that's got to go away, right? Because as an asset gets bigger Overall, the average 5 year CAGRs start going down. And so to me, it was extremely important to talk about ownership and rapid ownership and as much ownership as possible very quickly. Because if anyone thinks they're going to go to war with anyone else because they've got 0.25 bitcoin, you're still going to be a slave in the system, right? You have to own enough. And I thought that inflection number was one, you know, and it's like Michael Saylor for example, right? I'm a, I'm a strategy shareholder. The reason why I'm a strategy shareholder is that he can buy bitcoin on my behalf for much cheaper than I can, right? And he can do it in a leveraged fashion. So last week they bought 10,000 coins. That's 10,000 people in the world last week that can no longer get to one bitcoin. Because strategy is going to put that away. For me as a shareholder, that is what I saw. And that's where I come from. So when I hear all these revolutionaries talk about their ideas and going and teaching empanada makers how to accept bitcoin because they think that's actually valuable, I really hate that idea. And it's not that I hate the idea because I think it's a stupid idea. It's a great idea because everyone needs to learn the savings power of bitcoin. But the reason why my content kind of took off was that I realized people like my parents that immigrated to the United Kingdom, followed all the rules, built a property portfolio for their two sons, did all the right things, you know, took a, took a haircut on lifestyle so that they could do the right thing for their children. And then you're going to get all of your wealth just debased from underneath you. I was like, don't these people matter too? Like in the bitcoin community, it kind of felt like people that have made money or are earning money, a lot of money don't kind of matter. The empanada stand matters more, right? And I hated that feeling. So that's, that's who I started speaking to. And that was my sole target. Like, I didn't want to speak to anyone else. You know, if you, if you didn't have enough money to get to one bitcoin. I was not interested in talking with you. Like, that was my goal. And the benefit of bitcoin is because we can all buy the same asset. You know, the people that could only buy 0.3, 0.4, 0.5 Bitcoin could still benefit from my content, which in my reality was never possible because when I was in real estate, when I was in equities, when I was in gold or whatever, this, the conversations that someone with a $10 million net worth are having are completely irrelevant to someone with $100,000 net worth. Whereas with bitcoin, for the first time ever in human history, they're actually quite relevant. Same conversations, irrelevant. So that was my kind of perspective on it. [00:25:37] Speaker B: I really appreciate that take and I think it really, it resonates with me because I don't feel from a revolutionary standpoint that I'm ever going to be able to. The revolutionaries in my mind have come and are continuing and I'm glad they're there and I see the value of the revolutionary. But to your point, that's not the world that I'm living in. [00:25:59] Speaker A: I have three and they're losing kids, they're losing. That's what's crazy about this. They. They don't like to face the fact. And even. It's sad for me too. Right. Because, you know, as many people as I've, you know, hopefully inspired to get to one bitcoin for their future, for their bloodline, at the end of the day, in this drawdown that we've just had, the number one sellers were people with small amounts of bitcoin. The whales were accumulating. So I was right this whole time. And it's a bittersweet thing to be right about. But there's a, you know, that just is what it is. [00:26:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I feel you on that. Because that just reminds me to the story that I was telling you in 2020, where I had more, a lot more bitcoin than I have now that, that you never want to say never, but I definitely increase my hurdle rate to get back to where I was. And when you say I feel bad for people, that's how I feel this time around. It's like four year cycle. All of the noise and literal noise. This is where it's just like, just shut, you know, shut this and shut this and just go about your business and keep stacking. And that's one thing because I see the price come down. You see James Wynn, who's playing some kind of obvious. He's playing an obvious game to people that see someone who's playing a game like trying to attract people to follow his trades. And he's making some interesting short term calls that are have been shown to be relative. Like he could justify that. He was right. Here's where I even hesitate now because of the bitcoin spaces. I say that's fine because I come from a world where it's like I'm not so immersed in it. I'm just very much on the outside peeking into something that for me this is like in my title is intellectually curious. Like I don't see myself as the revolutionary. I'm not in bed with blackrock in the sense that I like you and am a MSTR holder and in fact I think of you when I hold my position. And there's something that you said that was so simple that really resonated with me. My feelings about the market, my view on the market. And you said bitcoin outperforms everything and MSTR outperforms bitcoin. And thinking of the context of what we're saying, I really appreciated that because I'm like, it's a weird kind of hedge because you're playing the institutions are going to dominate this. I do believe that the asset is going to just be priced out to the point where I won't be able to accumulate it in the size to make a difference. So my best bet as the retail investor is to try to get something that's going to leverage bitcoin on my behalf. [00:28:46] Speaker A: Yeah, a hundred percent. That's the way I look at all portfolios. If you want to simplify a portfolio, there's a savings bucket, an investment bucket and an income bucket. That's it. So to me, Bitcoin is my savings bucket, right? It is the absolute minimum hurdle rate and bitcoin just sits there. And so then I have an investment bucket. But the only way the investment bucket makes any sense is if it's beating the hurdle rate. Right? Because if the investment bucket isn't beating the savings bucket, well then I should just put the investment bucket into the savings bucket. Right? I'm going to make more money. So, so that's why I look at it and I, and then I like to look at things from a risk adjusted returns perspective and it's like, okay, well I understand the bitcoin play that's going on. I understand the adoption curve that's happening here. I understand how institutions are coming in. I could see this happening in front of my eyes. C suite of Wall Street, C Suite, the US Government C suite of every government is all suddenly pro bitcoin around the world. And you look at that and you go, okay, well if bitcoin is the savings part of the portfolio, it can only be Bitcoin. Plus that has to be in the investment part of the portfolio. It's like, okay, well what do you do then if you're looking at it from a risk adjusted returns perspective? Well, MSTR has been through a bear market. MSTR has proven that they'll hold their Bitcoin throughout this entire, you know, entire cycle. MSTR has proven that they'll do anything to acquire as much Bitcoin as possible. And they've proven that they won't take unnecessary debt risks. Right? Their debt leverage ratio right now is like 12%. So, you know, and the fact that they'll pivot, right? So that, so everyone was worried about their preferred stocks and saying, oh, what if they don't pay the dividends? So what did they do? They said, okay, we're going to build a cash reserve. So now they're set up for 24 months or whatever it is of paying dividends and the, you know, the 70 odd, whatever billion dollars of bitcoin that they've got. And they keep doing this, right? And also, you know, I had the lucky privilege of meeting Michael, Michael Saylor very early on in 2021. And he's one of the, if not the smartest, fastest thinking person I've ever met in my life. So it's like, that has to be the investment bucket, you know, and then, and then it's like, okay, so now if that's the investment bucket is mstr, well then whatever else I want to think about investing in has to be risk adjusted to mstr because MSTR is risk adjusted to Bitcoin, right? And so I think about it like that. I'm like, what the fuck else do I do? I buy at that at that point because it's like, okay, I could get involved in the AI trade and now I got to spend hours learning about that. And then what if there's a risk from China or any other country that does something that makes it better and I'm not, you know, intelligent enough when it comes to robotics engineering in order to figure that out. So it's like, how much? More like If Bitcoin's Cagring 30% a year, for example, over a 5, 10 year window, I'm completely happy with MSTR. Cagring, I don't know, 45, 50% a year, right? That Kind of makes sense to me, especially if it is what I think it is. Well then, now, if that's the risk adjusted way of thinking, how much more would the third thing have to generate me in order to make the investment worth it? You're looking at like 70% a year CAGR from a risk adjusted perspective, right? So it's like, what the hell else is there? Even Tesla I speak to, I got friends that are like super Tesla bulls and ask them for their price targets and the maximum CAGR that they've given me is like 45%. I'm like, well that's, I expect MSTR to do that. And there's much less risk because it's just based on bitcoin. So that, that's my kind of portfolio structure thinking. [00:32:35] Speaker B: I love this. And again, I invited you on because my portfolio structure is more in line with your, the way you're thinking about it. So it's almost like I'm trying to validate why I'm doing what I'm doing because I like it. I haven't, I'm not, not worried about it. Like I'm rooted in, in, in what I'm doing. But it's nice to hear someone say back to me because honestly, I got into it because of our friend and I didn't mind that he got out of it for different reasons, but I didn't feel like those reasons resonated with me. And so my thinking for getting into it still, I had, still had conviction for the reasons that I decided to pull the trigger on my position in mst. And so I'm going to lead that into another position that I have that I know you also talk about. And I learned about it in bitcoin spaces and I heard you guys talk. This is kind of interesting. In the beginning of the year, in the beginning of 2025, you go on and you, and you see these YouTube videos and I'm just the name that I'm thinking about is msty. And so before I even knew what that was, I just heard them saying Misty, Misty, Misty. And I was like, I have no idea what that is. I know what MSTR is, Mr. But I didn't know what Misty was. So I did research on Misty. And then in the beginning of this year, 2025, you see all these videos of retire on Misty. Like they, they set it up, it's like, oh, you know, they have this whole strategy for doing it. And I was thinking about the strategy and I'm like, you know, that's not a terrible Just as a comparison, I was looking at real estate, multifamily real estate, and getting in as investor with other people. And then it's a relationship type of thing. And then there's like a little bit layers of involvement. But. But much like you, I think about the return on it, and I was like, they're talking about 8 cap and 5 cap and this cap. And so it's like, okay, it's another learning curve for me to think about investing in this way. And then when I started to price out, like, what's my yield and what's my return? I'm like, you gotta wait 6 to 12 months for something to stabilize. So I'm like, I'm gonna throw in $50,000 now. I'm not gonna own it. It's a fractional share of a building I'll probably never go to. And the promise is in a year out from now, I'll get like 5% or something on that money and I'll start getting payments. And they say six months, they don't go a year out. But like. So this is my thinking for like, however, like my. I don't know when that would be just an investment bucket. I love the simplicity of yours and I'm going to get back to yours. But. But you're making me think of like, how I'm getting to misty, right? So this is what I'm comparing misty to in my mind. And I'm listening to what these people are saying in the beginning of 2025, and I'm like, this makes sense. I put my money in like I'm investing in a building or real estate, which if I did that in real estate, I would not expect to see that money for at least four to seven years. So I'm already retired that money from my mind. So I'm like, okay, I do this. I put my money into misty. What I'm unlike a building where it's like, it's a concrete structure. And like, what is misty? I was like, what is it? It's basically treasuries and call options on MSTR on top of treasuries. And so I was like, simple, like just to simplify it in my mind. And so I'm like, okay, so I'm betting on these. It's. And you can correct me if I. If you don't think my, my. I'm accurate on this. But to me, I just see it like a prop desk. I'm like buying a prop desk. I could learn, because there's YouTube videos how to learn how to sell calls and options. And I've done them and I've done it. And I was like, this is a job. I don't want to do this job. So then I see a product like Misty, and I think to myself, these guys are going to do that job for me. And instead of me putting my money into a building, I'm paying these guys to do this job that I could learn to do and try to make money off of, which would also consume my energy, or I could pay them to do the job, to create yield. So when I go back to the real estate, I think to myself, I'm putting in whatever dollar amount I'm putting in, let's just say a hundred thousand dollars, I'm putting in a hundred thousand dollars. And instead of the real estate waiting and what happens five, six, seven years from now, and all of the little, little things that come up with real estate in that I put it into Misty, I don't plan on seeing that money for an extended period of time. And all I care about is that they deliver on their promise of paying me. What you started out monthly at the beginning of the year, and now it's weekly. And then I also know the risks that come with it because I buy into the underlying asset, which is bitcoin. So then I say, you know, so. [00:37:25] Speaker A: One thing you've got wrong so far, the underlying asset is mstr, not bitcoin. Right. [00:37:31] Speaker B: And I, I appreciate that distinction. And you're right. Like, I think when I say bitcoin, I mean the bitcoin narrative. So like, I believe the underlying of what MSTR is is trading off or what they own. And then these people are trading call options against that. And I understand what they're doing and I understand the underlying asset. So again, not the underlying asset of Misty, but the underlying narrative of the whole bitcoin complex. So, like, it was my third, second or third interview with Dark and he brought up this term bitcoin complex. And, and, and ever since he said, I couldn't get it out of my mind. And that's the part I like, is like how I'm thinking about my different strategies within the bitcoin complex. So when I heard you talk about your strategy and how I know we talked about mstr and I haven't really given you a chance yet to talk about MSTY and like how that fits into your portfolio. [00:38:31] Speaker A: Yeah. So there's different ways to generate income right, in the markets. One of, one of the ways is to, like you said, do it yourself. You can sell call options and manage that. And I've done that for, for many years. I actually, you know, when I was in the gold space, one of my main things was basically buying GLD and selling call options against it because you could, I was making, you know, one and a half to 2% a month on, on holding gold. And you know, that is basically yield harvesting, right? You're harvesting the yield from the volatility of the underlying asset. Misty is harvesting the yield from the volatility of mstr. MSTR is a speculative platform that's built on top of Bitcoin. And so because it has that speculative value, there is volatility. And because it has volatility options traders like you and I and MSTY can harvest yield from that. Then there is a fixed income approach which is like MSTR's strc where you buy preferred shares and they guarantee you a dividend and that's also a good way. But the fixed income and a yield harvesting product are two separate things. And I've seen a lot of people try and compare STRC and MSTY and it's just not the same thing. So for me, the way I look at it is, you know, 5, 5 to 7% of my portfolio I put into MSTY and it pays me an outsized yield on, on the overall portfolio just with that 5 to 7% allocation. And of course it's, it's the performance has, has not been great on the stock value. However, they've been continuously paying out their dividends. Right? And so the way I kind of look at that is, okay, so what is my comparative return to just holding mstr? It's like, well, if you had held MSTR from the absolute top to current levels and held MSTY from the absolute top to current levels, MSTY on the, or basically like msty was like 15 to 20% worse off, right? The share price was down 15 to 20% more. Then you add back in your dividends and you were actually better off holding MSTY to the downside than you were holding mstr. But that has a specific place in a portfolio. I don't think it should be 50% of your portfolio. I think you should be looking at income in a portfolio to allow you to huddle the rest of the portfolio. That's where I see income. That's why it's such a small bucket. Because the main way you're going to make money in the environment that we're in, when we look at how much liquidity is being printed is through holding growth assets. Bitcoin and MSTR are the growth assets, right? And so msty what it does, and I'm blessed. I'm in a position where I don't need to even have any income portfolio. So the way that I use it personally is that all those dividends just sit there in cash. And then I wait for, you know, the entry points based on what I. What I think is going on in the markets, and I. Then I deploy that capital that's been generated through the dividends into. Into the market. But the average person. So I have a friend, you know, I wrote a tweet about him. You know, he held like $4 million of Bitcoin in cold storage. He's making $15,000 a month living here in Dubai. And, you know, he's living in Dubai. So $15,000 a month only goes as far, right? He's got a wife and a new baby, et cetera, et cetera. And so after I kind of told him about msty and the options that are out there, all he did was move 10% of his cold storage Bitcoin, $400,000 into MSTY. And now his income is supplemented. So now he's got a little bit less stress. You know, the wife is asking a little bit less about when are we going to sell bitcoin and take profits. And that's the way he's using it. And that's the way that I think income should be used in a portfolio, because the main goal is hodling the overall growth assets. And the problem in the bitcoin space was there's too many people saying, well, if you need money, just sell some bitcoin. The whole fucking point of this is to own as much bitcoin as possible. And now bitcoin is spreading the message of sell, just. Just sell some bitco like it's nothing, you know, And I just completely hated that, that approach. And this is a way to do it. STRC is also a way to do it, right? Like, you know, I've got. I've got friends that are like, you know what? I only need a certain amount of income. So instead of buying, you know, msty and dealing with the volatility on that, I'm okay with half a million dollars of supplementary income. I'm just going to buy $5 million of. Of. Of STRC and that gives me my $500,000 a year of income. And they're happy with that, that approach right now. They've obviously, we're now talking about people, you know, who have got significant amounts of wealth to make a 5% allocation. Right. You're talking about a large amount of wealth. But the main goal of income funds and things like that is so that you can hold the growth assets for a long period of time. That's the way I look at it. So that's what Misty does. Misty's is a yield harvesting product. It's completely different to a fixed income product. The yield harvesting products basically allow them to pay the dividends that they pay because they, they make money from harvesting the yield. Whereas strc, you know, Michael Saylor is offering that product to say, I want you to give me money so that I can buy Bitcoin with it and I'm going to guarantee you a 10% or whatever dividend that I'm paying you out. And so your return is basically capped at the dividend amount. Whereas with msty, if MSTR goes through the roof here, let's say MSTR in the next, whatever period of time goes from you know, 170 to, or 160 to $800 MSTY is now going to follow that up and now pay you dividends based on whatever, whatever the amount on the share price of MSTY is. So these are two completely different products. But you know, that's how I use it. And maybe at some point I'll move over to using STRC as well, I don't know. But it's such a, that's the way I see income products. [00:44:44] Speaker B: Do you? So you don't use STRC right now or you don't use it yet? See, and I don't. And when I was listening to you talk, that was like a good distinction in my mind to think about yield harvesting versus fixed income. So like that was a good distinction because I think to myself, why do I want STRC when I have mst? What? You just illustrated why you want that for the fixed income. Now again, I'm not a dumb person, but when I, when I think about these things, it's not how I normally think about them because I'm not a financial advisor. This is what like how a financial advisor would think about these things. But one of my closest friends who got me into the stock market manages his own money. We all, like my friends, we all just kind of manage our own money. But we talk to each other about what we're doing for management outside of whatever our employers do for us or whatever money is managed in other ways. And so I think making the distinction between yield harvesting and fixed income, could you differentiate that a little bit more? [00:45:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yield harvesting is basically like a business opportunity. It's URI trading and harvesting the volatility of the underlying asset, whether it's Bitcoin, mstr, gold, whatever you want it to be. Whereas fixed income is you are, you are buying a certain class of shares and the seller of those shares is guaranteeing you a particular dividend and that's it. Right. Whereas with msty, there's no real cap on how much money you could make. Because if they're doing the job right, then as MSTR is going up, they're going to harvest some of that yield to the upside and as MSTR is going down, they're obviously, you know, the share price is going to come down with the stock, but they're going to harvest the yield, which is how they've been paying the dividends. So that's the, that's the core difference. And at some point, depending on your stage of life, depending on all kinds of different things, fixed income might make more sense than yield harvesting. And at some points, like in my reality, yield harvesting makes more sense than fixed income. But for my parents, for example, STRC. [00:46:53] Speaker B: Makes more sense because they have the steady. That's what the distinction was. Thank you. The steadiness because I'm thinking, oh, the difference is there's a variable on the msty, for example, the checks have gotten smaller. But again I, I knew that going into it that I understood what was happening. If the underlying of which MSTR is trading, which is Bitcoin, if that's in a sideways pattern or down, MSTR is just going to be amplified in whatever bit. It's an amplification mechanism. So you have to understand when you're taking an amplification mechanism like trading on margin and depending on how many X leverage you're doing is an amplification mechanism. But at least MSTR is like a, it's a stock. It doesn't, it's not this, it's not the same thing as trading on margin. I understood if bitcoin goes down, MSTR is going to go down and that misty income is going to be less, but you're still going to get income. And that speaks to your point how in a way holding Misty did better than mstr, which is cool because it kind of, I think that's kind of why I was interested in having both because MSTR is more of a long term hold. If our thesis on Bitcoin is correct, which there's just infinite evidence as to why it was, it's something, I think you feel this way as well. Which is, again, why we're having this conversation is there's a level of conviction in your investing strategy. So, like, if you're to go to 100% self custody, Maxi is like some next level of commitment in my mind. One of the few people I can even think of that I was like, who's really like, living in that world is Terence. Because Terrence talks about how he's just completely on the bitcoin standard. And if you talk to my people in my world, it's like they don't, they don't even like, what is bitcoin? [00:48:50] Speaker A: So it's like, I haven't remember, I can't remember the last time since the ETFs launched that I've seriously encouraged someone to go, you know, study bitcoin, buy it cold storage, take, you know, custody. Because the people that I speak to have brokerage accounts, right? These people can go in and, and two seconds later they own iBit. It's like I remember one of my friends talking to him about bitcoin. He goes, how do I buy this shit? I was, the markets were open, I was like, open your brokerage account, type in ibit, press one share and click Buy. And he goes, all right. Two seconds later, he now owns bitcoin exposure, you know, and then obviously he's increased it since then. But that, that's, it's just the reality of the situation. Like, you know, one of the predictions I made last year was that we have hit peak bitcoin education. And everyone hated that, right? Because the reality is that we have, because it's now much easier and the Wall street and everyone else is much more incentivized to teach Bitcoin through IBIT, teach Bitcoin through any of the ETFs, because they get paid for that, right? And so that's how the ownership is going to spread here. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. It depends on what you think is going to happen. If you want, you know, there's some people that like, you know, I just like having possession of my assets. That's cool. That's cool as well. Then you can learn and go and do that. But I don't think that that should be a barrier to you having bitcoin exposure in your portfolio. [00:50:22] Speaker B: You just made me so happy because, like all year I'm thinking, oh my God, how do I get all of this stuff over into self custody? And not that I'm going to put, like, there's certain aspects of my portfolio, like my House, for example, I can't put that into self custody, like put that into like a cold storage unit. Although the products that are coming out now, I'm going to have a lot of different kind of opportunities, which adds a whole new layer when I start thinking about how much is actually going. How many businesses are emerging around the bitcoin complex, the bitcoin space itself outside of what's already present, like the institutions that are involved in big names that I think of like Coinbase. One of the things I love about bitcoin is my it can. As someone who likes to just, just explore different ideas. There's so many, there's so much deep rootedness in bitcoin that if you're a historian, it's a very educational process to see how it emerged and, and what, what the narrative antithesis to fiat and what hard money is and understanding its evolution from gold. And like, to your point, the education part of it is fascinating. What it's like, you know what, I'll use myself as an example. I'm a chiropractor. And when I learned to become a chiropractor, I had to overcome so many barriers that I had already was indoctrinated from being outside of that world entirely. Like do chiropractors get along with medical doctors and are chiropractors real doctors? And just all of these kind of the FUD of my healthcare profession. But then I get into it and I understand it and I appreciate it and I see the value I'm doing because I paid for my education and I've learned all this value. Then you go out into the world and it's like, now is my time to evangelize chiropractic. Unlike bitcoin, chiropractic has been around for over a hundred plus years. So it's got a little bit more depth of history. But relative to institutions like a medical institution that's been around for thousands of years, things are, you have to look at things in their relativity. So like when I think about bitcoin, it's been around for 16 years and there's these layers to it. And so I'm going to bring it back to you now because I'm like, oh my God, I just can get so in the weeds with this. You said something that I think is profound and is worth hearing is that their education part of it is already established. Like, like bring it back to me as a chiropractor trying to convince somebody about chiropractic. It's like, dude, you're the one who got the four year degree just make my back feel better. So it's like similar to bitcoin. If you want to dig into it to the, to the levels that we're talking about and understand it, that's an unusual thing. So to the layperson that wants exposure to bitcoin, these are the people I think when I, I didn't realize I was getting to this point, but I look back on my year of 2025 and the content that I've created. Unlike your content's fantastic. You really know your market and you know how to reach people and it's fun. And I'm so glad I had you on because there's so much, there's like a little bit of performance that happens when we go out and be social because we can't get into the depth of what we're talking about without getting. You're, you're just like, talk about noise. It's just like I just want to express a message. And you go out there and it's like compressed. It's like there's no real space to explore it in some kind of depth. So you do it and you do it in a fun way where you kind of shake people up by being. Coming off a certain way. And it's jarring, but it's, but it's not. It's honest and people sense that and I sense that. And I was like, this is a real dude and he's got a lot of. He's thinking about things in, in a similar way that I'm thinking about things, but I don't hear it talked about very much. And I feel like it really does get compressed in some spaces. So, so you, your, your content is fantastic. And I, it, I was thinking back on mine where I interviewed Dark and I've interviewed him a few times and I interviewed Joe Collissari and I interviewed Dave Weisberger and I interviewed Gary Cardone multiple times. And so I built this library now behind me with not a big audience, but it's cool that it's there. And, and for me that's just the education process of it. Like if people want to go in and go into the weeds, it's like I just spent my year publicly trying to understand this better. So like there's the library, but in terms of moving forward, get people involved however they want to get involved. To your point, simplifying it by the ibit, what you're seeing right now is the effect of bitcoin spaces. If you just, if you just take maybe too Much of that because it's fantastic, but it's very deep and it's very strong and it can feel very abrasive. [00:55:31] Speaker A: So it will make you. It will make you commit suicide after a while if you listen to it too much. [00:55:36] Speaker B: Thank you. Exactly. [00:55:38] Speaker A: You need to get depressed. They'll make you think the whole world is coming to an end. They'll make you step outside, there's someone waiting with a car to run you over. That's how they make you feel. And I've just never been attracted to that kind of energy. [00:55:49] Speaker B: Right. [00:55:50] Speaker A: Like, I've never been. Not a single wealthy person I know is a, what I like to call a doom and. Doom and gloom boomer. Like, that is not the energy of wealth. I don't care what anyone says. That's why I'm so allergic to it. Whether if I'm forced to be amongst it, then I've got to fight against it. Otherwise I'm not in that. I'm. I'm a bull. Perma. Bull, bullish. I don't care what is going on. We're looking at it, life from an optimistic perspective. And it just. And I don't care about short term. So, yeah, like, you know, the last. This correction from 126 to down to 80,000 was a 36% correction, completely standard for bitcoin. And, and it is what it is. If, if that shakes people out, then they deserve to be shaked out or shooken out. Like it just is what it is, you know. And yeah, I, I don't resonate with the whole doom and gloom boom narratives on, on bitcoin at all. It's. It, I think it's bad. I think it's, it speaks, you know, from a spiritual perspective a lot deeper than most people want to admit about what their own psyche and everything else. And I, and I don't think you should be looking at the world like everything's going to collapse, you know, in the next four years, because gold bugs have been doing that. And I was in the gold space. It's one of the things that so kind of turned me off with the gold space. Gold gold bugs have been doing that their entire lives and they're always wrong. Besides maybe three times in the last 70 years when now is one of. [00:57:13] Speaker B: Them thinking mad gold. The gold people are like, see, I told you after how many, like three decades or something. [00:57:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I had dinner with, I had dinner with Peter Schiff while he was here in, in the uae. And you know, he, he asked me when I sold all of my gold and silver. And I said, in 2020. And he said, wow, you sold it at 2000. It's like 4300 right now. I was like, yeah, Peter, I cry myself to sleep every night because I bought Bitcoin at $5,000. You know, like, what are we talking about? Talking about a 2x in gold and a 20x in Bitcoin. So it's. Yeah, look, I stay away from all of the negativity. I focus on what I'm bullish about, what I'm positive about, how the world is getting better and wanting to be a part of that. And I, and every single time I have allowed myself to get infected with the bearish curse, the bearish energy, the bearish skin rash that they, that they kind of give you. It's always doesn't lead to anywhere good. [00:58:13] Speaker B: I am so glad that I have you on and have your take because your voice is going to stay in my head. Like I said, there's like this library happening and you're really helping to round out. And I wasn't sure if I was going to post this episode this year or next year. I was like, how do I want to do this? And I, and I had no expectation going into it, but I feel after our conversation I would really, I'm going to shoot to get it out before the end of this year because I think that's the way that's the message I want to end with, is the positive aspect of like, how cool this asset is. [00:58:48] Speaker A: It's completely, completely short sighted. You know, one of the things that kind of pisses me off right now when I look at some of these doom and gloom boomers as I'm talking about is the message is gold and silver are going up, therefore something is wrong with the system and something's going to blow up. Well, if that's the case, the move index is not signaling any of that. The VIX is not signaling any of that. In fact, it's crashing, right? So you look at that and you go, okay, so just with a logical brain, if you look at that and you go, okay, so the move index, nothing's happening. So there's no volatility in the bond space. So clearly the market's not shitting itself over anything. The VIX is dead. So there's no volatility on that side either. So therefore, what is it signaling? Then you look at the history of gold and silver, it's like, oh, it's signaling incoming liquidity. That's what gold and silver does. It Signals, incoming liquidity. And then you look at that and you go, okay, so what's changed in the narrative on the liquidity macro side as a result of that happening in the last few months? Well, interest rates have been coming down. Right. They announced that quantitative tightening was going to end. They then ended the quantitative tightening and then under the rugs, they, they launched this new program called Reserve Purchase. Reserve Purchase Mat like reserve management purchases. So that was. We're going to inject 30 to 40 billion dollars for a month. So at some point, what the. What gold and silver to me are signal, and by the way, in addition to that, they pushed through this new rule on the slr, which is basically how Treasuries are risked, assessed risk assessed on a bank's balance sheet. So what that means is in 2022, to control the amount of credit going on in the world and to control inflation, they gave Treasuries a ratio so that you couldn't leverage your balance sheet if you were a bank holding Treasuries more than this particular ratio. So it tightened the credit. So what they announced was that on the 1st of January, that ratio is going to change to allow expansion of the balance sheet. It's not mandatory on 1 January, but by April it is mandatory, which means every bank will have a new assessment of how much balance sheet they can expand based on the Treasuries that they hold. The second that came out and got pushed through, Steven Moran came out and said, this is cool, but we actually need to remove all risk ratios from Treasuries. And we need to basically mean that whatever Treasuries you have on your balance sheet, they don't count towards how much expansion you can do on your overall balance sheet. That allows for massive credit expansion from a banking perspective. And then you've got the fact that the rates have started being cut. Gold and Silver is sniffing this out. Gold and Silver is sniffing out that massive liquidity is coming. Not that the system is broken, because clearly the move index and the VIX are not signaling that there's anything wrong with the system itself. So what that tells me is at some point, gold and silver about to pivot. And as that liquidity starts coming in and the velocity of that liquidity accelerates, that's when risk assets like Bitcoin start accelerating. So we're about to see a pivot. I don't know when it's going to happen. Gold and silver have extended further than I thought they would, but the further they extend, the more velocity of credit that's coming. And the more velocity of credit that's coming, the higher the pump is going to be on risk assets. And Bitcoin being on the end of that risk curve is going to be the biggest benefactor. And all of this changed. So people are talking about the four year cycle bullshit. I've never really believed in the four year cycle. I believe in cycles from like one halving to the next. And what's going to happen in between that period. That's the way I kind of look at it. And what's happened is Raoul Pal has done some great work on this and what, what basically happened was there is something called the debt refinancing cycle and that is how long do they, do they need to wait before they've got to refinance the debt that's on the balance sheet, on the treasury balance sheet. And that was four years from 2008. It was every four years, which kind of made it look like there was a four year cycle. The problem is in 2022 they extended it out for an extra year. So that's now coming. And how do you know that that is coming? Because the business cycle, which is based on the PMI numbers of the US demonstrate that there's absolutely no confidence in the current economy. Zero. It's been under 50 for like two years now. And as that accelerates, as all of these rate cuts come in, it takes about six months for the first rate cut to start hitting the real economy. So you got the rate cuts coming in, you've got the ratio changes on risk to expand balance sheet. You've then got the refinancing 8 to 10 trillion dollars that needs to be refinanced in the first half of next year. So that's going to be shoved onto the bank balance sheet. The ratios are going to be taken down so they can still expand their balance sheet and lend out into the real economy. As the loans and the credit starts coming, the confidence cycle in the economy is going to start picking up. We saw the GDP numbers today come in. They're very, very good. This is all building to the first half of the year being really good for Wall street and the second half of the year being really good for Main street. Into a midterm election and then you encompass all that and you go, the head of the damn treasury is an ex hedge fund manager and he knows exactly how this works. [01:04:32] Speaker B: That was really, really impressive because that is. I am one of those people that looks at the charts. I like, look, I just, because I'm nerdy It's, it's like reading X rays or something. I just like to see, you know, I learned so much about it. It's hard not to look at it and think about things in that kind of way. And what you just really passionately illuminated is the fundamentals. And this is where there's like a big. I brought up James Wynn earlier and he's a character. I don't want to digress too much on that because it does become a distraction. Dang it. Total distraction. But the fundamentals need to. What's happening in the charts isn't telling you the story. And I see that and I know that because I'm like, I look at the charts. I knew what I felt going into this year. I had the four year cycle mentality where I thought to myself, you know, I'm going to play this a certain way. I'm going to get into mstr, I'm going to get into Misty, I'm going to write it up and then I'm going to get out all the paper stuff and, and then, you know, Bitcoin self or do whatever game that I think I'm going to play in my head. And it doesn't look anything like that. And. [01:05:42] Speaker A: Well, you're gonna. Well, here's the crazy part. The crazy part is you're going to play that exact game. You're just gonna play it on the business cycle, not on the imaginary four year cycle that's been going on. [01:05:54] Speaker B: That's. I like, I like thinking about it that way. And you really helped illuminate what I had seen from Raoul Paul where he talked about the extension of the five year. He was someone who was a name I became aware of in 2020. Like educated me during that first round. And so this year when he talked about the extension of the cycle, I thought that was interesting. Like, I didn't really understand. I didn't watch the video, so I can't. I didn't know how he broke it down. But you just broke it down for me where I was like, oh yeah, that makes sense. On the business cycle. Not the, not this kind of game that like, for lack of a better term, like degen comes to mind. It's, it's. I, in all fairness, I have a little degen in me. You know, I have a small account that I'm going to degen on. So it's like if you know where something fits into your portfolio and your narrative, like what we talked about today with regards to Bitcoin, understanding the underlying asset, understanding what you actually own, if you own bitcoin in self custody versus all of these other ways to have exposure to the value of what self custody brings, which is expansive and equally as interesting in my mind as bitcoin itself. Which is why bitcoin is such a great teacher, because it teaches you hard money value, much like gold is a teacher in this way. Like a lot of bitcoiners come from the gold background because the narratives are very similar. They both, in my mind, see the problem or they both address something that is within the narrative. But they, they do. They. [01:07:42] Speaker A: The. [01:07:42] Speaker B: The stories moving forward are different. And if you are a technological person or if you're a math, like just thinking about things conceptually in numbers, Bitcoin tells a very, very fascinating story. And the deeper, like the deeper down that rabbit hole, I'm excited for years of understanding little bits and pieces and picking it up where I can. But on top of that is all of this larger financial, traditional institutional stuff. The institutions aren't going anywhere. They're not buying bitcoin because they think they're being replaced. That used to be one of the biggest obstacles to bitcoin is like, why would anybody adopt this? It's like it's, it's. They're antithetical to one another. Like to use darksword, like antithetical. But it. But this is where I tend to be more optimistic. And I see this more in like Joe Colasari or Dave Weisberger, where it's like, there's a view that it's all going to. The whole thing is. The whole mechanics of it is going to devolve in the next couple of years, like the fourth turning concept. And this whole, like the whole machinery is just going to break down. And beyond that, there is this. We are going to coexist. These two entities, the past and the future, are going to share a narrative moving forward that appeases everybody because it's like our mutual survival matters, that it makes sense to everybody that's involved in it. In it. And so when I think about bitcoin being a teacher, you can learn the honey, hard money aspect of it, or you can go further out into space like we're talking about it and how you talk about it. How I really appreciate is all of these financial products that are built on top of it and grounded in the traditional financial system. This is why they're embracing it. They're not embracing it to be replaced by it. They're embracing it as a hedge for themselves because it would be foolish of an Entity not to try to control something that is going to try to control it. So like it makes sense from kind of this larger story perspective. [01:09:51] Speaker A: I would actually even slightly disagree with that. [01:09:54] Speaker B: Go for it. I love it. [01:09:55] Speaker A: But slightly because, you know, I don't think that these banks are adopting bitcoin as a hedge. I think they're adopting bitcoin as an opportunity. It's not a, it's not. These banks make money off of credit expansion, off of volatility and bitcoin allows for massive credit expansion and massive volatility. And that's what, that's what they like. They just needed regulatory, they just needed regulatory clarity to get it done. Now they've got a top cover with a, you know, a bitcoin president, bitcoin, treasury, bitcoin, FBI, bitcoin, everyone. And it seems like, you know, even if you want to be Fed chair, right, you got to go out and dance about how much you love, how much you love bitcoin at this point. So yeah, I think they were waiting for top cover and then with the clarity act that's coming through, I think that's going to be massive as well in the U.S. and so, yeah, look, I'm very positive. I think they were looking at, they're looking at this as an opportunity just like they saw real estate as an opportunity. Right. That's how Larry Fink, that's what made me, you know, terrified and excited at the same time. With Larry Fink understanding bitcoin because he was the one who basically created the mortgage backed security market. So it's like, well, if you created the mortgage backed security market and now you realize that we could just print a bunch of money, shove it into bitcoin, no one's going to jump off of a building, no one's going to go homeless, no one's going to complain about the banks being evil, etc. Etc. We can securitize the volatility on this. You're now going pedal to the metal on this rather because now you don't have any social risks like you have with real estate, for example. [01:11:29] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah, I appreciate that insight into it. And it's a good, it's multi pronged. So I got passionate in one direction of it. But there's multiple variables for wanting to do this. And I've heard people explain it, people that are more savvy in the financial speak than I do a good job of it. And your insight into it has been tremendous. I really loved having you on today. Thank you. And yeah, no, this was a super fun conversation for me. I anticipated it. I. That it would be. And I did watch in preparation for this. Well, I don't know how much detail I want to go into. It's kind of like I took all of your YouTube videos the past, maybe that you did. Not all of them. You've done a lot of them, but I took like the past two weeks to see where you were at in your psych space. And I, I obviously wasn't going to be able to watch them all, so I put them into Notebook lm and then I did their audio feature, which gives you like a podcast version of a podcast. So they basically synthesized everything that you said in the last two weeks and put it into a, like a, you know, kind of broad audience. [01:12:38] Speaker A: This is, this is. [01:12:39] Speaker B: And it was fantastic. So I was, like, excited coming in to actually speak to you, to really get the, The. The personal, The. The nuggets from it. And I started this. I. I listened this morning on my run to the podcast. Not the podcast, but the YouTube video you did regarding your dinner with Peter Schiff, because I was like, I do want to listen to one. And, And I like. Your. Your videos are 15 minutes, which I love. I'm like, 15 minutes. Is that sw. It's like I could do 15 minutes. And your insight into that particular episode was great. It was. It was super. Like, there was a lot of authenticity. And how many people out there are going to be able to have dinner with Peter Schiff and actually have a conversation with him outside of what you see on Twitter? So to get some insight into, just to. To see people more broadly than we just see them online, because we pigeonhole ourselves by necessity when we're on social media. It's like, I'm this kind of person. I'm that kind of person. But what. But that particular episode you did was cool because it just put more just human on all of it. Like, he's a human being, you're a human being. And just the. The insight into. Because he seems nuts on X. Like, you just see him if you're a bitcoiner. He seems nuts and he's fun to play off, and you kind of know he's trolling you, but you don't. You really don't know what's going on in his mind and how much of it is theatrical and how much of it is, you know, just honestly, does he believe what he's saying? And you, you know, you want to take it for his word and everything, but I thought your insight into. And how you handled that was really well done. So if people haven't watched that and they're watching this, that's a cool one of yours to check out. Do you have any parting words for our audience? [01:14:36] Speaker A: You know, I used to, I used to end with, you know, this idea that you got to get to one bitcoin, etc. Etc. And I'm at the point now where that's still relevant, but it feels like less and less people are hearing it. It feels like retail is moving to degen speculation. And, you know, I think that anyone who is wealthy enough will have heard what I, what I said in this podcast and will take that action. I have complete faith in that. But the reality is, like, it is almost too late. This is a blessing that bitcoin has. We had the October market, something blew up in the market, and we had a drawdown for a few weeks. But the reality is this is now too late for a lot of people. And I'm talking about the overwhelming majority of people. It is now a savings technology and people are not going to like that because they want to speculate. That's the brain wiring that people have. So, you know, I don't know what, what my, what parting words should I have at the end of the day? You know, if you get, if you get it, you're going to get it and if you don't get it, you're just, your life's going to continue as it has. You're going to, you're going to go work, you're going to slave away and then going to come home and read some, some bullshit on the Internet that, that people are getting into. You're going to chase that. You're going to get rugged for, you know, 50, 60, 70, 80% of what you just spent time earning. And that's, that's your life. That's going to be your life. [01:16:05] Speaker B: Yeah, that's, you know, that's a strong message and I think people need to hear that. Like, I didn't know in 2020 what I had, and for me it's like a war. It's a, like a warning. And your words, heed to that and are good words for somebody to hear, to not make that mistake. [01:16:24] Speaker A: Hopefully. [01:16:25] Speaker B: Yeah, hopefully. Right, you do. I, I really appreciate that you're doing your part and you got across to me. So I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say goodbye to the audience, but I'm gonna have you stay on so we could just do a little, you know, back and forth and I hope you enjoyed Coming on and we're gonna see how this evolves. Number 37. Thank you for being here so much. British huddle. British huddle. Go follow him on X and go watch his. Subscribe to his YouTube channel. And if you appreciated anything of what you heard today, it's like, this is your guy right here. [01:16:58] Speaker A: So. [01:17:01] Speaker B: Thank you for watching this episode of the Money Adjustment. If you want more like comment and subscribe, you can follow me on X at Mark Kramer until the next episode. Stay healthy and wealthy. I won't stop recording. We'll record because sometimes fun stuff comes when I'm talking to you more casually and we're. It's not like, you know, I'm trying to get somewhere, but. Yeah, how. How was that for you? [01:17:32] Speaker A: It was great for me. Do you think it's going to be valuable for your audience? That's my main. [01:17:37] Speaker B: I think it's, you know, like, my only audience right now is, like, me. Like, I'm genuinely trying to appreciate the asset. I'm thinking about it in terms of portfolio management. And like I said, I started this podcast for fun. I didn't know what it was going to evolve into, but I think one of the things that helps me keep away from, like, the degen part of it is being able to have conversations with people like you. So when I feel value as I'm recording it, then I get like, I get a certain level of excitement or I'm like, oh, man, I can't wait to edit this. Oh, I can hear like, these are going to be great clips. This is going to be great to post. This is going to be great to share. So I almost feel like the way that I'm doing this, I might not. I may never have an audience beyond my friends that I send these to that do watch them and listen to them. So, like, my audience now is like a close circle of 10 friends. [01:18:32] Speaker A: I think you. I think you've got a great audience that you're missing, and that's doctors. I think doctors need bitcoin a lot. I think what you should do is go on to chat GPT and ask it how much wealth in the US Is held by doctors specifically focusing specifically on why doctors themselves need to have bitcoin in their portfolios. [01:18:52] Speaker B: You're right. Like, in terms of doing content. [01:18:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:18:55] Speaker B: And then just like, create that avatar where it's like, doctors. [01:18:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Because. Because the beautiful thing about bitcoin is if a police officer watches that, they're going to get value from it. But, like, for me, you know, I'M talking to people with significant assets, but people without significant assets are still getting value from the content. But that doesn't hold me back from specifically focusing on, on people with assets. And so I think that, you know, one of the things that's missing is people talking to people of specific professions because there's going to be things that you can say that I wouldn't know how to even say to doctors, for example. So I think that's a. [01:19:33] Speaker B: Really appreciate that insight because it reminds me of a conversation that I had with another doctor that I work with and he called me outside of work hours. I like him. We get along. We've had like, convers outside of what we just do professionally. And he was asking me where to allocate his money. And I again, like, you know, to your point, I'm not a financial advisor, but I think there might, maybe there is, I don't want to say distrust. I think money is just one of those super sensitive things that as soon as you start that kind of relationship with somebody, you just, it's. It's very sensitive. So you want to make sure the person that you're talking to is like, gets the sensitivity of the matter. But to your point, he felt comfortable calling me and asking me what to do with regards to his bitcoin and everything, or not with regards to his bitcoin, but what he should do with this money he has right now. I just tell everybody bitcoin not to diverge too much from the doctor thing. But I'm just thinking, because other people that come to me that are not in the space, not doctors, but other people in my life, I practice yoga. And so someone I practice yoga with came up to me and asked me, oh, you know, I want to invest this money. And now they're. Not only do they tell me that they want to invest a certain dollar amount that they have, but they give me their whole, you know, this is how much I have in savings, this is how much I have here. And I was like, oh, crap. I like took on a job as a financial advisor. It's fine because I don't have that level of accountability, which I love. It's like, I'm not a financial advisor, so it makes it. I just like this stuff. And so it gives me a reason to think about it. And then people come to me, I think through things for them as I would do with my own money. Like, this is what I'm actually doing, which is why I love talking to you, because you and I are talking what we're actually doing with our money in terms of investing in mstr. Msty. Like, I get why you have the structure set up the way you do and that vocabulary to think about it that way. And you said. Which is a good point. It's like. Like I'm going to be able to have conversations with people that you would never be able to have conversations with. Not because you don't know your. You totally do, but it's like people just resonate with different people. [01:21:48] Speaker A: So. [01:21:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Because I do those other ones and I get the. There's. There is this. There's. It does leave me feeling a little depressed sometimes. [01:21:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. [01:22:00] Speaker B: And I'm like, I don't. I'm thinking about my audience and thinking about who I'm trying to reach, too, because I'm in it. Like, I like Bitcoin. I'm already. You said something in one of your videos about I'm a retail investor like you. And I don't know if you are or if, like, how true that is for you, because you have more experience than the average retail investor. [01:22:19] Speaker A: You do not. We're still retail. [01:22:20] Speaker B: Retail. Retail, but we're still retail. Right, right, right. And so, yeah, I appreciate that because that's how I most classify myself. Myself as a retail investor. [01:22:30] Speaker A: I really appreciate this. Thanks for having me. And let me know once it goes live. [01:22:35] Speaker B: I will. I'll send you some dms. I'll see you next. [01:22:37] Speaker A: All right. [01:22:38] Speaker B: I'll be trolling you. All right. Thank you, buddy. [01:22:40] Speaker A: Please do. See you. [01:22:41] Speaker B: Bye. Bye.