Bitcoin: The Foundation for a New Renaissance

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Sep Bunny said all the fiat money you have today, all the fiat currency you have today is worth the most today. Just think about that. Wild. Wild, right? Okay, so tomorrow it already buys you less. It's a tiny bit, but you and I know that, you know, if you go out now and you go to the supermarket and you just quickly get some evening meal, the number you're paying is way more than what you computed in your head just from memory and experience. Sometimes I just put stuff together and I have to pay €40. I'm like, what are you, you know, are you serious? But we all know something is happening. We know life is getting more expensive. Everyone is feeling that. But people don't consciously understand. They, they, they just don't understand where that is coming from. But people do feel in a, in a, in a, in an, in an unconscious way that there is a certain degradation going on. And that is also what you're seeing, right? I mean, I always use the example. As you know, I live in a home that's from 1902, and I have really nice doors and a really nice staircase. For example carpenter there that was like, I'm gonna make a really nice door. Like, I actually have the time to put my skill to work and make a nice hard wooden door, same as with my staircase, has this like crazy bend in it and they bended the wood and what? Like, it's just nice. And the glass is nice and leaden glass or whatever. If you look at the stairs today, or a door today, right? Like, it's just saw dust compressed together. And that's the door. And you can look at that, you can look at the quality of the food, you can look at the quality of the architecture of the, of the public domain, all the, all these things. And so somewhere people know that they feel the degradation and they're also part of this degradation. [00:01:37] Speaker B: Hello, welcome to the Money Adjustment. I'm your host, Dr. Mark Kramer. I am a chiropractor who loves investing and trading. Are you interested in what's moving markets and your money? [00:01:49] Speaker A: Bitcoin is now proof of money. I like Michael Saylor's quote. He said, if you can remember 12 words, you become the money. [00:02:06] Speaker B: Can we leave? Should we leave our audience with that? Yeah. Become the money. Become the money. Let's get started. So today I am very happy to have with me a young person, younger than me, anyways, and this gentleman, he saw a video that I. A clip that I did with Tomer Stro Lite, who I had on a few weeks ago now and we exchanged some DMs together, and I'm happy to have him on today as a guest. He's been a guest on what Is Money with Robert Breedlove. And he's also has his own popular podcasts, which I discovered, which is called Bitcoin for Millennials. And as with most of my guests, people that are watching this probably, I'm sure, know him better than they know me. So I always feel kind of somewhat silly doing the introductions, but I have to do them anyways. My guest today is Bram Constein. And did I pronounce your name correctly? I always get a check. [00:03:02] Speaker A: Perfect, perfect. [00:03:03] Speaker B: Awesome. [00:03:04] Speaker A: Awesome. [00:03:04] Speaker B: Bram Constein. And where I want to pick up with Bram today is he did a very interesting interview with Jeff Booth a few weeks back. And if you haven't seen that, I recommend people check that out. But when I was watching that interview, right off the bat, Bram respectfully challenged Jeff, who is a, an authority in the space and very well respected, as far as I know, in the bitcoin community. And he asked Jeff, well, let me, let me frame this, because I definitely want to get Graham's take on this after he's, he's had a little time to process that interview for himself. But he framed it that in terms of adoption with regards to Bitcoin, there are. The consensus, as far as I can tell, is that first, bitcoin has to be acknowledged as a store of value. And juxtaposed to that, my understanding from what Jeff said and what, how you framed it, is that he argues or, or, or presents the side that bitcoin needs to be a medium of exchange first, which I thought, to me, that was contrary to my understanding of what the consensus is on that. And then he asked a question which I'm still kind of grappling with because I wasn't exactly sure with where he was going with it. But I was curious now that Bram has had a chance to process this information for a little long of time, and if he's given it a second thought, is Jeff asks, why do we need a store of value anyway? So maybe let's just do that as a jumping off point. [00:04:38] Speaker A: Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I, I, I think this is probably at the core of, let's say, one of the philosophical debates around what bitcoin is, could or should, should be. Right. And I think my angle for asking this question to Jeff was also because Jeff, you know, he says, you know, if bitcoin is not used as a medium of exchange, it, it will have failed And I like, somewhat agree with it, but also partially like hard disagree, disagree with it. And I think my main kind of like frame of reference comes from, I don't know if you know, do you know the article the bullish case for Bitcoin from Vijay Boyapati? [00:05:23] Speaker B: No, I'm not familiar with that one. [00:05:24] Speaker A: Okay, that's, that's like an 11 year old article or something. Let me see. 2008, 2008. I have a episode with Vijay also. You can, you can check that out. I'm gonna make a series with him because he really talks about like what is the evolution of money, right? Like how does a new money get adopted? And I try to find a piece from his article that I can read for you quite quickly. There's also a, another article that is very interesting to read which is called Shelling out by Nick Szabo. So Nick Szabo is the creator of, I think it was called Bitcold or something. He's mentioned in the, in the white paper and he, this Shelling out article is basically a super deep dive into the origination of money. So it's called Shelling out because it, you know, in, in very, very long time ago, people are using seashells as money until people figured out that seashells weren't that rare. Right? So you could forage and go out and get more seashells and then you would be richer basically, right? So the seashells weren't a good money. But like he has a very, very deep article, very classic article that I think every bitcoiner should read, which is called Shelling Out. But I'll, I'll, I'll read apart from Vijay's article and then I'll, I'll answer the question. Okay. So he says, you know, Nick Szabo argues in his essay that the human desire for collectibles provided a distinct evolutionary advantage for early men over his nearest biological competitors. The primary and ultimate evolutionary function of collectibles was as a strong medium for storing and transferring wealth, right? So the whole idea of something being scarce, hard to obtain, makes it valuable in the function of store of value assets. Does that make sense? Right. So a currency would have a way higher velocity, you know, being exchanged all the time in an economy and a store of wealth, you know, so that could be a bit more abundant a currency, but not too abundant. Right? That's, that's fiat currency, you know, that we at the base. But the store value by definition is something that is more scarce, hard to obtain and therefore it's Kind of like this, this, you know, it oscillates in. In a certain range of being desirable because it is scarce. Does that make sense? [00:07:36] Speaker B: Yes. [00:07:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. So he says collectibles served as sort of a proto money by making trades possible between otherwise tribes that. That weren't working together and by allowing wealth to be transferred between generations. Right. So when I die, you know, whatever I had in scarce assets went to my children. So trade and transfer of collectibles were quite infrequent in older societies. And these goods served more as a store of value rather than a medium of exchange, a role that we largely recognize modern money to play. So Nick Szabo says, and then I'll. I'll share. Compared to modern money, primitive money had a very low velocity. It might be transferred only a handful of times in an average individual's lifetime. Nevertheless, a durable collectible, what today we would call an heirloom, could persist for many generations and added substantial value at each transfer, often making the transfer even possible at all. So there was this dilemma between the thing that I'm storing value in, should I actually use it to also trade, right? And that challenge propagates to today and is kind of the essence of my challenge to Jeff, because he strongly says it will fail if it's not used as a currency. My point is that you cannot force people to adopt a money just because it is better, right? So if you just look at the characteristics of Bitcoin, it is money today. You and I can exchange that today, right? I can offer you this bottle and say, you know, it's one Bitcoin, and you say, yes, you send me the Bitcoin, I give you this, right? We. We can do that freely, but it is because you and I understand what Bitcoin is. So even today, with Bitcoin being actual money and fiat money not being money, right? So money has three characteristics, right? It can be used as a medium of exchange. It is a store of value, right? And it can be used as a. As a unit of account. So why is fiat money not a store of value? It's because it's perpetually being debased, so it loses value on. On purpose. So therefore, it is not a good store value. So a currency is not money. An actual money could be used as a currency. And that's kind of the core of my point, right? So because we are living in a time where you and I understand that all the fiat money we have today is worth the most today. And once you wake up to that and you cannot unsee that, Right? You have the immediate issue, challenge, problem, whatever you want to call it, to figure out, okay, how do I actually mitigate this problem, Right? Even if the inflation or debasement is 2% a year, in 35 years, that'll be half of your wealth or purchasing power gone, right? So you have that issue today. We know it's way more than 2%, right? So once you understand that you have that problem today, you can start looking for alternatives to actually store your value. Now, you know, people can do that in very different ways. There's a lot of assets that people use. You and I have come to the same, I would say, rational conclusion that you should do that in Bitcoin. And again, that is to substantiate. My point is, okay, today I would rather spend money that is losing value tomorrow, I. E. Fiat currency, right? And store everything I don't want to spend in the hardest money to ever exist, which is Bitcoin. So my personal incentive, you know, I sometimes I spend Bitcoin. Like I pay my hairdresser with Bitcoin because he accepts Bitcoin. I have some other people, so I do do it, but it's not on a big enough basis because I'm happy if other people take the money that is losing value. Does that make sense? [00:11:09] Speaker B: Right? So. And also, yes, it does. [00:11:10] Speaker A: When I buy Bitcoin, you could also think about it in a way that I'm selling fiat and getting bitcoin. I'm selling fiat for Bitcoin, right? I'm not buying Bitcoin. So if you start thinking about it like that, it is very logical. Like, for example, in the border area between Canada and the U.S. on the Canadian side, there are stores that accept U.S. dollars and they give you Canadian dollars in return. These people know that the US Dollar is a stronger currency that is more purchasing power than the Canadian dollar. Right? This takes place in many places. Also in the Caribbean area, et cetera, they take dollars. In many countries in the world, they would rather take dollars than the national currency. So the thing I have with Jeff is my question was, don't you think that there is a sequence, if I. For me to figure out that Bitcoin is a medium of exchange, that is, I want to receive it, for example, in a value exchange with someone. I should first know, in my opinion, that it is a good store of value, or else why would I ask for it as a reward in a value exchange? Does that make sense? So now, yeah, so it's just more like I'm coming from a Place where it's kind of like in the organic way, like, we cannot force people to adopt Bitcoin as a medium of exchange. That's impossible. It should be an organic process. But the crazy part, of course, is that fiat money, you're forced to use fiat money as a medium of exchange in whatever country you live in. That should, in my opinion, already be a signal to you as far as what the quality of that currency is, right? If there's no free market of monies and you're forced to use a certain currency, that shows you that there are certain centralized forces that are in control of this and want you to use it to their benefit, et cetera. That's a different conversation, right? But you see that for a very, very long time, everyone thinks that fiat money or fiat currencies are the best money that we organically ended up with, right? Like when, when you were five or six and you got like coins or a bill from your, from your parent and you went to a store and you gave it and you got a lollipop or a drink, you were. That was your lesson in what money is in, in our world, right? You felt like, okay, apparently that is money. And you basically never question it again. Even when you do like an economic study or whatever, you're calculating with units. But there are no philosophical discussions, debates, explorations as to what money actually is or where it comes from. So a lot of people just ass that this is the best way, shape and form that money organically evolved to. But we both know that that is obviously not the case. So, you know, my thing is that although Bitcoin is actual money, it's better money. It's a better store of value. You and I can use it already today as a medium of exchange if we both agree to that in our total freedom and free will, et cetera. Most money, most people don't even know that the money is broken, right? They don't even understand that when people on the TV talk about inflation, they talk about price inflation, but they never talk about the inflation of the money supply, which is the source of the price inflation, right? So I love Jeff and I learned a lot from him. But I think what he is proposing is eventually correct. But I don't think it will happen in our lifetimes, to be honest. If people do figure out that Bitcoin is the best store of value at a level of where you and I are, for example, yes, then people will slowly start asking for Bitcoin as a reward in whatever value exchange they participate in, right? Like if I put out an assignment to do my garden and there's four guys that come with an offer and one guy wants bitcoin and the rest wants fiat, I know that the bitcoin guy knows that he has to actually deliver value for the hardest money to ever exist. Right. So I know that his incentives are aligned with mine. And I would probably go for him. I personally would do that today. But I also think that there's maybe 500,000 people in the whole world that are at our level of that understanding and, and, and, and behavior. [00:15:39] Speaker B: Can I just interject for a second here? Because even that you made me stop and think with regards to that, because I never haven't thought that through in terms of if someone accept bit accepts Bitcoin versus someone who accepts fiat, I have more trust in the bitcoin person because there's a sense of understanding sound money, if I'm interpreting you correctly. And then, but, but part my head kind of went. I don't know if I distrust the person that's doing the fiat to your. Your point also, most people just don't. Aren't even thinking in that way. So it's not that I feel like that other person is a disintegrous actor or not being honest, that they just more than likely. Well, I mean, that's the prevailing. [00:16:20] Speaker A: Also not what I'm saying. That's not what I'm saying. Right. [00:16:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:23] Speaker B: Okay. [00:16:23] Speaker A: I'm sorry. I mean, more like the guy who asks for bitcoin has a. Has like A plus, let's say a plus on the. [00:16:30] Speaker B: I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah. [00:16:32] Speaker A: So I'm not. Most people have no clue. But once you understand that, and I'll tell you why, if people don't know consciously that the money is losing value every day, they have no clue. They don't. You know, I had a guy on my podcast called Seb Bunny. He has a amazing book. I forgot the title of the book, but Seb Bunny. And he said, all the fiat money you have today, all the fiat currency you have today is worth the most today. Just think about that. [00:17:00] Speaker B: I agree. [00:17:01] Speaker A: Wild. Wild, right? [00:17:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:17:03] Speaker A: So tomorrow it already buys you less. It's a tiny bit. But you and I know that. You know, if you go out now and you go to the supermarket and you just quickly get some evening meal, the number you're paying is way more than what you computed in your head just from memory and experience. Sometimes I just put stuff together and I have to pay €40. I'm like, what are you, you know, are you serious? But we all know something is happening. We know life is getting more expensive. Everyone is feeling that, but people don't consciously understand. They just don't understand where that is coming from. But people do feel in a, in a, in a, in an in an unconscious way that there is a certain degradation going on. And that is also what you're seeing, right? I mean, I always use the example, as, you know, I live in a home that's from 1902, and I have really nice doors and a really nice staircase. For example, there was a carpenter there that was like, I'm going to make a really nice door. Like, I actually have the time to, you know, put my skill to work and make a nice, hard wooden door. Same as with, you know, my staircase has this like, crazy bend in it. And they, they bended the wood and what. Like, it's just nice, you know, and the glass is nice. And, you know, a leaden glass or whatever. If you look at the stairs today, or a door today, right? Like, it's just, it's just, it's just sawdust compressed together. And that's the door. And you can look, you can look at that. You can look at the quality of the food, you can look at the quality of the, you know, the, the quality of the architecture of the public domain, all the, all these things. And so somewhere people know that, you know, they. They feel the degradation, and they're also part of this degradation. And think about it. If you realize that everything you earn today is already worth less tomorrow, where is your incentive to actually do the work, to actually bring value, right? It'll become more like, you know, getting rich quick type things or spending shit on spending money on stuff you don't like, or buying cheap plastic stuff from China or whatever, you know, why does that proliferate from China? Because we all want that, right? And so there's this. It's hard to, like, put your finger on it, but people feel that actually doing the work isn't valued anymore. And you cannot really, you know, maybe the carpenter, the carpenter that made my door is dead for a long time. And I still love the door, right? Like, I'm still appreciating his work. Does that make sense, right? Like, and that is really gone. And when I say that, I think a lot of people would agree with that. And my point is. And the point of a lot of bitcoiners is also something set. Bunny told me, right? They, you know, this meme is like, everything is downstream from the money, but the full, the full sentence is everything. Every incentive is downstream from the quality of the money. So if, if I'm going to do work today, if I'm going to spend time and energy today for a reward that a third party can print infinitely without actually doing the work, and tomorrow I can already buy less from what I'm earning today, although my time and energy is gone forever. Why would I make a fancy door or a fancy staircase or actually do my best in whatever I'm doing? And that is a very slow decay that in my opinion, goes hand in hand with the quality of the money. So if you enter Bitcoin, right, something that is absolutely finite, verifiable by anyone, no one can create that into perpetuity, right? It's a set amount of reward that an economy of people, machines, companies, whatever that are providing goods and services can chase, right? It's the meme of abundant money creates scarce resources. Scarce as in quality, beautiful, etc. What I just mentioned, Scarce money creates abundant resources because people have to actually fight in a marketplace on merit, actual free market capitalism, to acquire this money of which no more will ever be created. So the incentives totally flip because they ask you to actually do the work. That's why I'm saying if there's a guy who's coming to do my garden and he wants Bitcoin, I know that, I know that he knows that I know that I'm not going to part way with my bitcoin that easily. Does that make sense? I hope that makes sense. [00:21:21] Speaker B: I interpret that as a perception of value in terms of the perception of value for the person who asks in Bitcoin versus the person that asks in the dollar. The one distinction for sure, and I could see it, and I appreciate your point, is that as soon as you say the, it would almost be the same as someone saying gold to the same understanding that there's an agreement that the currency, the fiat currency is being debased. So there is that level of perceive value in that you and I know how precious this exchange of medium that we're using in the Bitcoin scenario is. We, we appreciate the value of it versus this. It is a subtle distinction here versus that abundance of printing that we take for granted in society because that the currency becomes the means of exchange, but the currency itself is devalued over time. There's a lot of heavy weight in there that you and I couldn't discuss that in a me, in a meaningful like transaction because we're worried about the problems that we're trying to solve versus saying bitcoin, or I'm going to say gold, just to broaden it for people. [00:22:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:22:29] Speaker B: That idea of just appreciating what sound and hard money is. And that in and of itself. [00:22:35] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's also the whole idea, if you think about free market competition of monies. Right. Like, again, why are you forced to use a certain fiat money in a country? Is that for your individual benefit or is that for the benefit of the people that control the money? Because you and I can agree that you do my garden, right? And you say, I want $10,000 and I say no, seven, and you say eight and a half and I say, okay. And then we shake hands. Right? That was in total freedom. We agreed that whatever the work is that I want to be done. That, that is worth $8,500. We, we just agreed that. Right. But then that what we use as a reward for your time and energy, which is the energy and time is your productivity. Right? Like, and what you can do with that, how well you can do the job in my garden, that is kind of set. That is what you're proposing. Value proposition. Right. And I agree that, that appeals to me. And then we agree on whatever amount of units of dollars that is worth, we can do that in total freedom. Right? You can start that business in freedom. You can promote that in freedom. I can buy a home with a garden in freedom, all that stuff. Eventually we meet each other in the marketplace and I want you to do whatever I want to have done. But the reward we are using in this value exchange is controlled by a centralized third party that doesn't give a shit about your or my. My individual prosperity. And that is the. That is the issue. That is the issue. Yeah, yeah. [00:24:11] Speaker B: That's very deep. [00:24:13] Speaker A: Bitcoin connects us. Because if you understand bitcoin and I understand bitcoin, we don't need anyone else. We can actually do the full value exchange, including me giving you the reward without any third party present. And that, that is, that is the, [00:24:30] Speaker B: the difference of having people like you on. And I think when I started this podcast, it didn't start out as a bitcoin oriented podcast. It was just about investing in trading. But the people that I was most drawn to was. Were people in the bitcoin community. And I think you're really nailing the heart of it in that when I want to do my work to store value, I want to know that the value that I'm putting aside maintains its value or gives me more purchasing power. In the future. And I'm willing to sell sacrifice less now for the idea that I'm going to have more later. But the environment that we're living in right now is that we are exchanging melting ice, to use the metaphor that's often used with the money that gets you there quick is like, as soon as I give you this dollar, you cannot store it because by its very nature it is decaying. I am giving you something that is dying, in a sense. And so your option, or my option if you were giving it to me, is I need to put this away into something so that I can preserve it so that it doesn't d die if I'm conscientious in that way. And what are my options? Real estate, stock. [00:25:40] Speaker A: Go ahead. Yeah, so just the melting ice cube is great, right? Like, does being rewarded with a melting ice cube increase your incentive to actually create value in my garden or not? That is a very simple question. I think the second part, what you're saying, because we talked about my side of the value exchange, let's talk about your side of the value exchange, right? Let's say you decide to, you know, everything is risk. Getting a job is risk. Is risk. A certain job, a certain education, living somewhere is a certain risk. Getting a certain job somewhere at a certain company or whatever is a certain risk. Starting your own company, being an entrepreneur is a risk, right? So everything is inherent. Everything you do in life is risky. Waking up is risky. You could die, Right? Okay, so everything is risky. Yeah. So let's stick with the example. You decide to be someone who does gardens, right? And like you said, I don't know about your goals. You don't know about my goals. I don't know what you find important or whatever. That's all irrelevant. Whatever you, within your free mind decided that is important for your life, you should be able to strive towards, right? Whether that is living in a certain place or building a family or building whatever the fuck you want to like. It doesn't matter. But it doesn't matter, right? That should be your free individual decision, okay? [00:27:02] Speaker B: That's the sovereignty of it. That's my sovereignty. Yes, go ahead. [00:27:06] Speaker A: But in essence, by nature, everyone should have that. Would you agree? Well, you have it, right? You have it. But you live in a constructed society, a matrix or whatever you want to call it, right? It's a paradigm. And you are forced to receive a fiat currency controlled by a centralized third party that doesn't care about your individual prosperity, your goals, desires, whatever, okay? So if you want to build Something, right? Like in the past, for example, last year I was in, in Belgium, I was at like the, like their old stock exchange, whatever. And the building said built in. I want to say 14 something or 17 something, it doesn't really matter. 250 or 300 years old, that building still standing. What has been built in your lifetime that will stand for another like 2, 3, 400 years, right? And I use this analogy for anything in your life, anything that you want to build towards your future. If you want to be a prudent person, if you want to live somewhere or build a huge garden business or make a family of 10 children, what, again, whatever you want to do, you should be able to move toward that with the wealth, right? The capital, the money that you're accruing by actually delivering value in the marketplace. So these are two things. You decide to do a garden business, whatever. If you suck at that, no one will be your customer. That's fine, you move on to the next thing. That's how it should work, right? But also takes time to learn about this stuff to, to, to get customers and referrals and build a network. Like, you have to invest more than money, time and energy and sacrifice and whatever, right? Like, good stuff takes time. That's the corny saying, but it's true, right? If you want to build something, you know, these, these people that built the thing that is still here after it's 300 years, they never, they, they don't know that we still marvel at what they built. So whatever you would want to do, let's say you want to build a huge garden business and make a family of 10 children, you need money because money creates time and space to actually attempt to do the business and have literal space for 10 children, for example, right? If you're really good at doing the garden thing and you make a lot of money and you make a lot of people happy, you are actually the dude. Like you're the garden dude, okay? If you save money that is losing value every day, you still have an issue with planning for your future. And if you do not solve that, your motivation to be the garden dude will slowly decay. Does that make sense? And you will also not really get to the point where you can build the thing that is maybe literally larger than your life or will exist beyond your life. And I think this is something you and I have no clue about in our modern life now, but we have proof from history that there were people before us that actually did that stuff. I'll give you one more example. Did you know that near Machu Picchu, even Machu Picchu in general is a crazy thing, right? On another mountaintop across from Machu Picchu, there is a. There's like a gate that was built, and it's in this crazy inhabitable place and had to like really go there, make the gate. What does the gate do? On like the summer solstice, the sun shines through the gate. That's the only thing, right? So literally, people planned and worked together and probably people died climbing the freaking mountain, right? To build something of which the only purpose, one time a year was to show them their place in the. In the entire universe. And that's what people did. And they work together. Okay? So, so. And these people weren't different than you and me today. And that is kind of the thing that is. Really hits me a lot of those times. It's like, okay, we could actually do these things too, but we are stuck in this paradigm matrix again, whatever you want to call it, using a technology, right? Like money is a technology to exchange value, to express value, right? I think it's important to do my garden. That's why I pay you. Some people don't care about their garden. So they don't, right? So it's also a way for me to express what I find important. Same people, biologically evolutionary as you and me did. Crazy shit. Shit that we think is crazy. But in today's day and age, because of this injection of fiat money that in my opinion, brings a lot of chaos to our alignment towards the future, etc. That is one of the biggest issues today. I'll end with this. Everything, like I said, everything is risky, right? And your life is risky. This is what Safe Dino Moose talks about in his books. Like, you have a future uncertainty, a natural future uncertainty. I could be dead tomorrow, right? You don't know how long you live. So if I make plans for my future in my limited life, of which I don't know how long it takes, right? Like I want to have 10 children, or I want to make a business or whatever, I am taking on some of some risk by choice because I'm. I'm making decisions of like, where my path is going, right? But to get there, like I said, I need money. If the money loses value constantly, it actually increases my uncertainty towards the future. Although today I might consciously be choosing or you're choosing, I'm going to be the garden guy. This technology that we're forced to use, the fiat money actually increases our uncertainty towards the future. Now I'll let you think what you think about that because then we. We can go in a whole spiritual conversation around what does that actually do to your mind? Right. And your, your experience of life. Whatever. [00:33:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I appreciate everything that you're saying. I feel like we could go in a lot of different directions. And I actually want to say if, if you allow me the opportunity, of course, to do like an abc, because I'm gonna try to recall everything that you triggered. I know there was a lot of responses. [00:33:20] Speaker A: I'm sorry. [00:33:21] Speaker B: I love it because part of me as I'm doing these is like, okay, what's the clip? Where am I going to. I can already see like visuals for this. So I'm going to start with this one is uneasiness. So, like, when you would reference exchanging value via. I'm just going to say decaying versus melting ice because it feels like dirt and paper decays. It's almost a more natural metaphor is like this decaying value between each other. I'm like, that is why there's this constant uneasiness for people with regards to money in general. Yes. You're going to have the gurus and the people that are, you know, have evolved their spirituality, if you even want to say that, terms to the point where they, they are living in a state of abundance and are operating from a strong place. But even those people that I've seen, there's still a level of like, there's a perpetuity in everything that they do because ultimately it does lose value. And the you have, the more you want. And so there is this constant uneasiness around money. And part of that is, is when I think of the dollar or fiat, is that decaying value? But when you started to talk about Bitcoin and you started to talk about sound money, and you started to talk about sound money being exchanged between individuals without a third party being involved, I did feel a sense of hope. It does feel more hopeful. You, you also brought up how you feel about the future. How will you be feel about your future if you know you're just. Just getting money that is losing value or you're getting fiat or currency, but it's losing its electric. It's losing its juice as you get it juxtapose. In my visceral experience, I could feel what you're talking about. So it also. This is kind of like. That was my A. Let's just jump to B. That idea when I started to think about hard sound money reminded me of guests that I've had on in the Past that would talk about the rep. The renaissance that we're entering upon thanks to bitcoin. So you go look at like classical Greece, 400 BC, 350 BC, jump forward to a renaissance period of almost just a rediscovery of what they had at that time. And if you go to the money aspect of it, maybe you have to get closer to the Roman Empire. And that was where the, where stories of debasement started to occur. So when we think of money in its gold form of gold and then over time to pay for wars and debt, similar problems that we had today, they had to debase the money so that you were. The gold was no longer gold. It was a fraction of gold, if any gold at all, to the point where it was a very little value similar to what's happening to fiat currency today. So that's like the deep history vantage point. And if you could bear with me one more second, the sea of another place that I could see us going is bringing it back to Jeff Booth and thinking about store of value versus medium of exposure exchange. Part of me was thinking, I wonder how much of it has to do with scale. I think today even the medium of exchange does exist. If you're in a well developed nation, then you're looking at Bitcoin more speculatively. It doesn't. It is more of a store value mindset because you don't need the immediacy of the currency exchange. But if you're living in a war torn country. So for example, per capita, I just realized this last night, maybe you know this, but per capita Ukraine is the fastest adopting Bitcoin versus like yes, United States, India are the fastest adopter just because they're larger on scale. But there is adoption happening and the reason for that adoption is very different than for a different region of the world. So with regards to scale, the adoption of medium of exchange, I don't know what the exact scalability of that, it can't be that large in my mind just because bitcoin itself as a total market cap isn't quite that large in the, the global scheme of things. So like there's a lot of opportunity for that actual medium exchange part to grow. But in terms of adoption, that's the store of value side. And this is where my biases come in because that's my use for my use case for it in the short term is store of value. For me it serves that purpose. I'm already, I'm in a country for now, the time being that I can exchange value through the fiat, even though it's losing its value. And to your point, I'd rather exchange that value in fiat because I want to save in the other asset, which is Bitcoin. [00:37:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh yeah, a lot of things. Maybe, maybe to the last part. The, the, the, the short, the shortest answer. I, I think this is also part of Jeff's answer is obviously you and I speak from a privileged place where we have the opportunity to primarily use it as a store of value and, and ignore the medium of exchange part. And like Jeff rightfully so said, in other places in the world that is, is quite different. You know, it's used in ways you and I can never imagine. And I think that is also the beauty of Bitcoin. I think eventually, you know, kind of the crux of the discussion was, you know, would it be bitcoin or like what I think is happening, like if. And that's where I'll get to if Bitcoin is the, the, the. You know, you often see this, this image of like, you know, the TCIP protocol and then on top you have, you know, HTTPs or whatever, like the, the stack of the Internet, basically. If Bitcoin is the ground layer or. Well, some people say Bitcoin is layer one because layer zero is actually proof of work, right? But anyway, you could see Bitcoin as the base layer value. It is everything to which any type of value is derived from. N2, right? Whatever is used on top of that as a, you know, money protocols, whether centralized or not. If it is eventually tied to Bitcoin. I personally think, I don't really care whatever is being built on top. Although I know that a future where Bitcoin is the only thing in my opinion is, is probably better. And yeah, we, we can go there to, to that Renaissance thing. Like the, we can stick with the, with the example of you and your, and your garden business. The whole idea, in my opinion, is that if we talk about Renaissance, you know, the Renaissance was also really about discovering what life is, right? Just the whole, the whole spiritual aspect, the beauty aspect, et cetera. So if you are stuck today in doing your garden thing because it turns out that you actually suck at doing gardens, right? But, but you chose to do this thing. Currently, today, there is no real free time and space for people to figure out what their place is, what their role is in terms of adding value to the world, right? There's a lot of people that have jobs that they hate. There's a lot of people that have stores or companies that should actually be closed Right. But they don't have the opportunity to try a lot of different things, fail at a lot of different things, to eventually end up with the thing that they're actually good at. Plus enjoy. And on a bitcoin standard. So again, if you start a company, you have to have capital, right? You have to have some sort of money to buy time and space to attempt the business. If you are good at the business, you will make money and continue. If you suck, you go broke. But you need to have a bit more time and space to recover, right? Does that make sense? So even if you had a little nest egg, even if you had like money saved, it already buys you less. As we talked about on a bitcoin standard, if I have some capital of my bitcoin, my thinking already changes because I know the bitcoin because it's the hardest money to ever exist and people organically move towards that. I know that my purchasing power is appreciating in the future. And that does two things. One, it makes me contemplate if I should actually spend it today on attempting a risky thing, you know, trying or starting a new business. Is this actually something I want to do, would be good at, do I know the market, blah, blah. So it makes you more contemplative and more reflective from the bat. But let's say you, you still try it and you suck. If your capital was bitcoin, there's no problem. If you fail at your attempt of doing business A, does that make sense? Because bitcoin you saved as your backup, appreciated in purchasing power. So it gives you an opportunity to do attempt B and then attempt C and then attempt D. Right? And if you think about it like that, in a Renaissance type of idea where in our future, you know, we're going to have robots, AI and whatnot. Okay? So all the, all the basic stupid work that a lot of people do today that they hate is just going to be done by robot at a very large scale and very low cost. So what are we going to do? And if you want to have a renaissance type era where people, you know, might just sit in nature all day and look up and contemplate what, you know, what is going on here? What is this? Like, who am I? Where do I come from? Where am I? All that stuff, all the spiritual, all the philosophical stuff that eventually also leads, you know, all the inner reflection, all the inner ideas also lead to manifestation in, in the physical world, in, in whatever way, buildings, nature, schools, thoughts and, and, and whatnot that even live today right from the last Renaissance. There's still many, many buildings, many ideas that still live today that are fundamentally either beautiful or true or valuable. And that's why people still do it. But in order to literally create this time and space, we cannot do that on a fiat money standard, as we, I think broadly already discussed, right? People literally do not have time and space to sit in contemplation or to reflect or to go on an inner journey, to even connect, connect with, with other people, right? And so that's kind of where I see is going because we'll hit a certain inflection point where. And this is what Jeff Booth also talks about, right? The natural state of technological advancement, et cetera, is it's a deflationary force. Eventually everything becomes more accessible, cheaper, et cetera. But how do you measure, basically, maybe that's a strange label, but like deflationary productivity gains, right? Like they we gain in productivity but, but it's deflationary. Like we become more productive at a lower cost and larger scale, right? So it's deflationary if you price that gain in a money that is inflationary. These are the two forces that are battling each other, right? And then my super simple example is always like which, if you want to figure out which side is winning, I always ask the question, do you think, you know, we, we sometimes make a joke, like 60 years ago a bread was 15 cents. Do you think that true technological advancement and knowledge, et cetera, we've become better at making more nutritionists bread at a larger scale at a cheaper cost? Like would that be a rational thought, right? Everyone would say yes, in 60 years, I would assume we've become better at making bread, just as we've become better at making a lot of other certain things. But why is the bread $4 units and not $0.15 units, right? Like why is that? It's because you're pricing it in a money of which you need more units to buy the same thing that might even be better or well, cheaper to make, right? And those are the forces that are, that are battling with each other. That is why if you price it in Bitcoin, you will see that over time you can buy more bread in this example with less Bitcoin. And because there is only this finite amount of rewards that products and services can chase, there has to be innovation. People have to innovate and become better and create more value in order to chase this scarce resource. And if more people are aligned with that, I think we can get to proper basic abundance very quickly. And then the time and space opens up to look at all these other things and go on this reflective insight journey, et cetera. Sure. [00:46:08] Speaker B: I feel such a sense of idealism when I listen to Bitcoiners because they really try to paint this. It's more. It's more logical. And everything that you're saying to me, when I hear it, it stands to reason. And I'm already biased in that direction because I've come along, I've been indoctrinated. But then there's that part of me that goes. Cause I start thinking of time frame. So, like, when you're saying what you're saying, how many years? And I don't expect an easy answer to this. How many years are we talking about here? Or even years or decades or centuries. [00:46:44] Speaker A: I love this because this is so funny. I asked Jeff, not in this conversation I had with him, but before, like, okay, but how do we get there, right? Like, how. How do we get to the future? Like, what needs to happen to get to the future? Literally this question. And he said, but you're already there. You are dead. You are that, right? Like, what are you waiting for? And it's kind of. It's kind of a dull answer, but it's not untrue, right? And I'll add this. I don't know how long it's going to take. I do know that every other possibility of outcome is a very doomer and dark outcome because we are in a time and place where, you know, you kind of talked about this. I think we are on, you know, if you. If you think about, you know, there's always this pendulum swing, right? It goes up and down, et cetera. I think we are at the far end of. Of a pendulum swing of which one side is centralization and the other part centralization and kind of outsourcing and dependability on the centralized forces. And the other side of this pendulum is, let's say, decentralization, sovereignty and agency, basically. And like personal control, right? Like I'm in control of my money. Therefore I'm also in control of my time. That's why this time, right now is also so chaotic. Because all the people that enjoy the benefits of being part of the centralized forces that basically exert control over many people that are oblivious to even this construct existing, right? They are fighting to gain this. I'm of the. I don't want to say belief, but I think my understanding of how nature works, it is about this pendulum swing and this search for kind of like an equilibrium, right? And this alignment with higher consciousness. Source, whatever, however you want to call it. And so it is not weird or crazy that people are very, you know, unaligned and they're very stuck in, you know, literally outsourcing large, large parts of their lives. You know, looking at government, please save me and like all these things. Whereas I think you would agree, and we said before, right, you, you, you, you know, your chance of existence is 1 in 300 trillion. Like the fact that you can even experience this reality is bonkers, right? And so you would get the most out of your life if you would actually be able to experience what life is. And again, I mean, it sounds like a broken record, but fiat money is literally the root of all evil. If that is the source of basically the most important communication we do between people, the exchange of value, right? If that is already corrupted and all other incentives are derived from that corrupted source of reward, it permeates through everything and it also keeps you stuck. This is what I wanted to say earlier, right? Keeps you stuck in this kind of like consumer mindset, right? This, this high time preference consumer mindset, that thinking about like the hustling, like, I need to hustle this guy and build this garden because the money is bro, and I'm gonna, you know, buy this, you know, of girl a Porsche because, you know, blah, blah, like you know, all the degeneracy. But you are not a consumer, you are a creator. Every human is a creator. Okay? We can create anything we want. You, you are a builder. But in my mind, again, fiat money is an immense distortion field in the immense opportunity we have to create anything we can imagine literally in this reality. So to tie it back to the Renaissance part, if we want to be able to actually do that and create the abundance and the beauty, the heaven on earth, whatever, some people think that's woo woo, but like, like what else would you want? Does that make sense? Like what, what else is there to kind of like strive for? Like I would say, like that is the thing and anything else is inferior to that. So if you're just like, you know, I'm, I'm okay with outsourcing, you know, large parts of my life to just other people know better than me that are by some way shape or form are part of some centralized force that apparently rule over me. If you want that, fine. If you don't, I think Bitcoin is one of the solutions that you can use to protect yourself because you're taking energy away from a system that is just not designed to be of benefit to your prosperity. So you're taking energy from a money system in which you are a subject and you, you sell it. And you, you, you, you take something which is bitcoin, and you move into a money system where you are the actor, you are in charge of your own wealth. You can own your own wealth, you can verify your own wealth, you can transfer it with anyone without any permission, move it anywhere, right? So that's kind of how I'm seeing the kind of like there's just two roads, right? There's like the doom road and there's the hope road. And I'll rather strive to get as far as I can on the hope road. [00:52:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. I think bitcoin is the solution to a problem that the large percentage of the population doesn't realize we have. It's a solution to a big problem that most of us don't realize that we even have. And so that comes back to even what you said with Jeff Booth, which I, it really landed with me when I, and I said, how far into the future do you imagine this? And you said, well, it's happening now and then, because we're talking about it. So some form of that awareness currently exists. And then, then my mind went to scalability. So then I think to myself, oh, it's a matter of time to. When does that become maybe the prevailing consciousness versus the fringe consciousness that it's perceived to be right now. [00:52:59] Speaker A: Yeah. I'll add one thing. If you just think about these, like there's two. It, it's two parallel paths, right? One is the fiat money path, which has a predictable ending, which is zero and chaos, right? Like it's a path dependent thing. It will be debased into infinity. And part of that is more outsourcing of responsibilities to other people know better than you. Because there, there's only one opportunity for centralized forces that want more control on this road of this money going to zero, which is more control, right? Whether it's a CBDC or UBI or whatever. Okay. The, the parallel part, the other, the parallel road, which I often call a mirror, right? Like bitcoin is a mirror. Bitcoin is literally everything that fiat money is not, right? It's a 1, 180 of that. And it also gives you all the opposite. Well, it gives you all the things that fiat money takes from you, right? Like the agency, the sovereignty, et cetera. So once you move to that lane, you, you know, I don't know who said it first, but like bitcoin is fu money, not fu as in like you Know I'm rich and I can say F you. No, it's about F. You cannot touch it, right? Like, and so it is, it is really mine. And just that, just that action, just, just that one action even just in your mind before you move to bitcoin, understanding that that is an option, right? I always say also you have to take a little red pill before you take the orange pill, right? Like you need to accept, you need to accept that there are other people no better than you that exert control over your life. Whether you want it or not, whether you're aware of it or not doesn't matter. Like it's true. And so you have to ask yourself the question, is that something I want to allow? That is the red or the blue pill? I think that that is a crossroads, right? You go either way. And so let's say you go on the bitcoin parallel road and you start living like that, more aligned with first of all yourself and figuring out what that means, right? A lot of people that get into bitcoin, including myself, go on this huge spiritual path and exploration because they know that they have fixed at least a very important thing of even having again the time and space to go on that journey. And that is not only financially, it is because you already made the red pill decision. It's not about how much bitcoin you have. It's about the fact that you understand that you could actually make a free will decision and move that puts a lot of people on that spiritual path. And then when you live like that, it will show to other people. Because at some point these other people that are going to be stuck in their CBDC, 15 minute, UBI whatever fucking prison, they're going to be like, what are these bitcoin people like? Why, why, you know, why are they so happy? Why, why are they having children? I don't want to have children. You know, the future is so insecure, blah, blah. Why are they doing that? Right? Christine Lagarde was, you know, was on the TV and she said it's, it's the bitcoiners fault that, you know, trust in the euro is going down because they're choosing another money and this and that, you know, and then you're going to hear us like all these rando. Well, it's funny because it's not random, right? But it's like crazy intellectual, smart online people, up until also very well known people, extreme academic, whatever from every, every type of person. It's so diverse. All these people that are flocking to bitcoin yeah, it. I think that is the inspiration by itself, right? So when you say, you know, how long is this going to be? And whatever. No, like, you should do it. I should do it. It. I should talk about it like this again. I don't really care if anyone buys bitcoin after they listen to this, because, you know, you know, I really don't care. It's just me showing what it did for me, not only having bitcoin, but also going through the more spiritual or philosophical journey, however you want to call it, and that is the same for you. And you will touch and reach different people than me, and I will do that in my way. And that is the entire goal. Like, the action is, is the inspiration. And then eventually, if more people are more aligned philosophically and spiritually, and bitcoin goes where we think it goes, right. If it's the black hole of value and everything is measured against bitcoin, then we're going to be a quite enlightened, rich bunch of people that can do stuff. [00:57:18] Speaker B: I love all of that. And you articulated something for me that I do feel, and I'm glad you said it because I don't have a lot of bitcoin. I'm very into bitcoin. It's a percentage of my portfolio. I'm aware of it. I once had more. I. I wish I had more of it than I have now. Right. Hindsight 20 20. But I feel what you express and guests that I've interviewed have said that. And I remember early on, even Gary Cardone touting that for himself. Like, he's like, this has changed me, man. There's something about it that, that once you get it, you feel different. It does something to your psychology, to your use the word spirituality. I could use that. I feel that word as well. There's something that when I think about what I have in Vic, what I'm storing in bitcoin, versus what I'm storing in fiat, the bitcoin for me is an anchor. And it doesn't matter the size of it. Even the first thing that I see in the community when they. They, to use the term orange pill people, it's just like, just get off zero. Like, the first thing is just get off zero so that you can at least feel what it's like to have a little bit of bitcoin. And then as soon as your stack starts to grow, it feels to me like an anchor against an ocean, an infinite ocean of fiat. Like the fiat to infinity resonates with me because there's a part of me that's stored in that. And because we still live in that world and I, I consider myself still fiat minded, even though I'm very, very open. Fiat minded because I feel it. It's just like I, I just. All new money that comes in goes into bitcoin. I'm Gen X. I'm not a millennial. I hope younger people like you because you're starting from that vantage point, you have an edge. Like that's really going to help you down the road. Where older adults like Gen X, we're in the middle. We don't have as population size, we don't even have as much influence. And then which are the ones in control and which arguably are the institutions now they have to adapt like because they didn't emerge with the technology. It's more of a radical shift I think on that end. And so just having that little bit of toehold in bitcoin and knowing that there's this anchoring thing that's growing for you, this deflationary money juxtaposed to what currently exists and that is debatable for how long that goes into perpetuity. Like we're just like you said something earlier about being built on top because this is an argument in the space. This got me really passionate about the whole bitcoin space was what developed between Joe Carlassari and Darkside. Are the examples in my mind where Darkside paints a picture and is more of the theory of like he's very bitcoin centric in terms of the asset will because fiat and bitcoin are antithetical to one other. One goes on infinitely and the other one is finite and grounded. That at some point that finite and groundedness. And I think this is where the idealism of bitcoin is where it's like at some point none of the fiat's going to be necessary because we're going to be operating from this more perfectly sound money versus like Joe Carlosari. And I'm sorry to call out Joe and I, you know, I don't like calling out people especially when they're not on to defend their positions. And I'm a lay person trying to, but that's how I see it. Like those are the two figureheads I see in my mind is like there's always going to be this, this fiat currency, but this time digital fiat currency. Like when I think of stablecoins I just think digital fiat and we could go into one's fractional reserve and one's full reserve and then there's all, you know, logistics with regards to that. But in terms of finite 21 at 21 million, and, and that's an anchoring. And then you have an, a clear number to divide into what your perception of value is, whatever the object, or real estate or. [01:01:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:14] Speaker B: Stock or. [01:01:15] Speaker A: Yeah. I think I have two things to say on that. Maybe, maybe to, to close out. Like, sure, I, I, I agree with dark side more, but I also understand what Joe's saying. Like, this is the, the nature of humans, of reality, you know, this polarity, light and dark, you know, good and evil and whatever. This is just how it works. But it's also that again, this, this, this pendulum swing idea, these ideas of centralization, these centralized forces that decide which money you should use, right? What you should invest in with your 401k, although everything is losing fucking value, right? Like, you should invest in bonds, although, you know, this country is $38 trillion in debt. You should still buy the bond. Because the good thing, or whatever, it is becoming indefensible, more and more indefensible. Because there is an alternative that exists, which is bitcoin, right? Like, and, and also what I really love. And, and it's also something I talked about with Jeff in the conversation. He really agreed. Like, proof of work comes back in every fractal of Bitcoin. Like bitcoin itself, but also you, right? Like you're, you're, you know, this whole idea, you know, this is corny, but, like, be the change you want to see, right? Like, I have a podcast. You have a podcast, like you're doing something, right, right? All the haters that come out when bitcoin goes down a little and say, like, oh, it's shit and it's a Ponzi and this and that. The only thing I, is post your shorts, post your massive short position. Like, post your 99%. I'm all in, you know, short position. Because bitcoin stocks is a Ponzi. It's going to zero, but they're not doing it right. So it's bs. Okay, so fiat money, like the fiat money brain, is all talk, no walk, right? The bitcoin brain is you walk your talk. It's proof. It's, it's, it's proof of work. And it permeates through everything. Why I'm saying it's, you know, fiat money is becoming indefensible. Like, there are no benefits. There are no benefits. So any proponent of fiat money or some centralized control over an economy and finances, you know, modern monetary theory, Right. It's literally the people in charge cannot explain to you why people need to pay taxes when they can create money infinitely, right? They, they, they, they don't even understand that increasing the amount of units of a money decreases the value of all existing units. Like it's so basic. It's so basic, right? And I've had many times where I've just sat by myself and thought like, am I like a gigabrain chat genius for figuring this out or are they just dumb? Are they just following a system? Like I humble myself quickly that I'm not the giga brain chat, right? So they, they, they, they are either dumb or they're, or they're malicious or they're just, you know, NPC brain following, you know, whatever their role is in a certain system. Because the entirety of fiat money is indefensible. So I think over time, more money that, more people that wake up in their, it's, it's an individual adoption, right? Like you have to wake up to the money just like I did, and so on and so on. And then, you know, just tell other people and be like, well, I chose this other money. And I'm chilling not because I'm crazy rich, because, you know, I freed my mind. I think that is just how it goes. I mean, just that sentence is incredibly defensible. Do I want other people to hijack my mind? No. Okay, how did you free your mind? Well, by doing this. Okay? You either think that's a good idea or not, right? So I feel that the hard money, decentralization, sovereignty, decentralized organization, decentralized media, decentralized creation, AI whatever, will all crash against all decentralized forces in my country. They're like, oh, you know, we got to regulate AI because this and that. No, like, like no, you know, the government needs to figure out like the government people that are still using, you know, Windows 2000 or XP, whatever on their little Dell laptop that, you know, it is just, it, I won't go that, that, that whole route, but it's becoming more indefensible. The whole fiat mindset, the whole like frame of reference, the, the, the, the, the process of fiat money is becoming more indefensible. And, and, and that is also just a logical path. And so we are early and we're, or at least I'll talk for myself, like early in a sense that we are seeing that it's going there, we are taking action upon that. And that is why we're crazy because 98% of people have no clue, like you said, and that is okay. But I think that is what actually is just a great challenge because bitcoin asks you every day, am I still right or not? You have to think about that, right? You have to reflect every day. Did I make the right choice? Did I actually study enough? Do I understand what is happening in my micro? Do I understand what is happening in the macro? Is my thesis for the future still correct? Like, it forces this agency upon you because you, again, took that choice, that little red pill to take it on. However much bitcoin it is, doesn't really matter. You took the choice to take that on. And once you take that on, you have to constantly assess if that is still the right choice. Now, if you think about that versus how much people have outsourced in fiat money like life, then you can kind of see what the. What the dichotomy is here, I think. [01:06:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, I love it. Like, I'll be honest with you. I don't know if you do this because you. You have a similar podcast. I go back and I listen because I feel like there's a lot of depth and nuggets, and I love. I do my own edits, and one of the things I love about doing my own editing is that I get to re. Listen because there's so many. So much like little distinctions and little bits of insights, and something just registers a little bit more. And I really appreciate you having on, because you definitely did that for me. Would you like to give the audience. Just to let you know, because I want to be respectful of your time. I'd like you to give the audience maybe just your. [01:07:10] Speaker A: Your. [01:07:11] Speaker B: You already gave them tons of nuggets, but just a parting statement. And then if you could stay on for just a minute or two, because I have some. Some questions for you as well. Like side questions. [01:07:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I. I think I'll stick with, you know, the. The action is the inspiration. Like, if. If you are into bitcoin and you think this is a thing, and you. You realize there's something going. Whatever level of understanding you are. Right? I'm learning new stuff every week, have new insights every week. I think because of the fact I took it on for myself, I need to educate myself also. Right. And I think that is actually a good thing. And so, yeah, again, I think the action is the inspiration. And that doesn't mean you should start a podcast or write a book or whatever. It should be you thinking for yourself and choosing for yourself and then just kind of notice how maybe people in your. In Your social circle or your. Or your vicinity have certain, I want to say, ideas about their life or life, you know, life in general or the society or whatever that you slowly start to realize you don't really have. Right. So sometimes, you know, I lurk on Reddit on like the millennial subreddit and what, what these people are discussing. I don't recog any of it. And again, not because I'm some, like, super duper gigabrain millionaire or whatever. No, because I just freed my mind and I'm thinking for myself and I approach life, I'd say, in a very different way than I did, you know, 10 or even five years, five years ago. And I think I can attribute a lot of that to. To getting into Bitcoin and forcing myself to take on that agency. So. So that will be it. [01:08:59] Speaker B: I love that. I think that's a great message. And we, we touched on the Matrix a couple times and it entered my son's consciousness and he's like, oh, I want to watch the Matrix. And I was like, yeah, I'd love to watch that movie with you again. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to. I always enjoy watching the first one. And I want to give you a small plug because I was talking to Tomer and I believe he's going to be a guest on your podcast coming up shortly. So I'm super excited to tune into that one. And yeah, if you're not aware of Bram, definitely check out his podcast, Bitco Millennials. And thanks for watching this episode of the Money Adjustment. We'll see you on the next one. Thank you for watching this episode of the Money Adjustment. If you want more like comment and subscribe, you can follow me on X ark Kramer until the next episode. Stay healthy and wealthy. All right, I'm going to let it run for a second because it's not like it's a secret question or anything like that, but because I was talking to Tomer and he and I are thinking about. Because of the success of that little video clip, because of you. Because you're really the one who pushed it forward and got it a lot more attention. Yeah, for sure. I wouldn't have gotten the attention it got if it wasn't for you. And so we're putting together, like a little series where I want to do more of those. Where it's going to. Because to. You said it, you read. Yeah. So Tomer has this book, which I'm sure you've. I'm guessing you've read. I'm only starting to Read it now. Which is the. Why Bitcoin? But it's all. I didn't read. [01:10:31] Speaker A: I just read all his. I read. [01:10:33] Speaker B: That's awesome. I know he does a lot of writing, so. But I started reading the book because when I talked to him about this idea, he's like, I have this little book. I've been wanting to do that and I'm going to. I even have recordings that I did. And I was like, well, just send me the recordings. And I'm putting them together. [01:10:49] Speaker A: Yeah, well, maybe I have another idea. So. Yeah, I think that's great. You should. Good. I assume you also watch the short movies that Tomer made. Bitcoin is beautiful. [01:11:00] Speaker B: And I've seen that one. I've seen that one. [01:11:02] Speaker A: Yeah. And Bitcoin is generational wealth. Like both of them. [01:11:06] Speaker B: Did you watch? I watched one. It was about 15 or 20 minutes. [01:11:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [01:11:11] Speaker B: And he was the narrator. Yeah, that was the biggest. [01:11:14] Speaker A: The other one. Bitcoin is generational wealth. I think I cried with one of those too. I don't know. [01:11:18] Speaker B: Really. All right, I'll check it out. I'll have to check it out. [01:11:21] Speaker A: Out. But I think it's been long overdue to have something like that. [01:11:26] Speaker B: Just small bits because especially the way people consume content. And that was Tomer's idea, is just having the little essays where it gives you little nuggets of what bitcoin is in a digestible way. [01:11:38] Speaker A: I like that. Yeah. My idea would be like a 15, 16 minute thing like that one. And I talked to. Do you know Julian Figueroa? Do you know who that is? [01:11:47] Speaker B: No. [01:11:47] Speaker A: He has a YouTube channel called the Exit Manual. If you've seen him, he's doing really well. He's like a filmmaker dude, like bitcoin guy. And I talked with him about it. Like, it will be super cool to have like another kind of like philosophical, spiritual type short movie film, whatever you want to call it, like let's say 16 to 20 minutes or something. So that's something I also wanted to say to Tomer. Like if he's down for that but fun you're doing this. Maybe that is something we could do together or something. [01:12:14] Speaker B: That's what I. That's. He's like, think about evolving brand because you really have more reach than. Than I do. And Tomer is. [01:12:20] Speaker A: There's. [01:12:21] Speaker B: You know, it's interesting, like with regards to the follower and things. Things of that nature. My best episodes were with Darkseid and he's got the least amount of night. I shouldn't say the least. But, you know, I just had on Fred, and Fred's got 250,000 followers and nothing really. I mean, in terms of. I love. I always love the interviews because like I said, for me, it's a private library. I'm not an interview. [01:12:47] Speaker A: Literally, why I'm doing a podcast. [01:12:49] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like I'm getting to pick all these great minds. I used to, I used to have these phone calls with a financial advisor and they were, you know, I talk to them one hour a week, a month or something, and, And I just, I'm like, oh, my God. I'd rather be just talking to these forward thinkers that are really looking at something in a, In a bigger way. But it's those all digression. I really loved having you on. And maybe in the future, you know, I'll have you on again and, and, you know, pick your year. We'll go a different avenue than we did. And like I said, I'm looking forward to watching the one that you're going to do at Homer. I know that's going to be awesome. And if you guys want to collaborate on anything, because that's the. I, I. When I made that video, and I'm glad you appreciated it, I felt so good. Like, I actually see myself more of a be. I like that creative part of it. [01:13:39] Speaker A: Yeah, it's really, it's really good. I love it.